IOM Covid removing restrictions

[TheTeapot]

Just now, Happier diner said:

I know it makes sense. However it seems a strange thing that it's good to catch the disease to reduce the chance of you getting the disease. 😕

Catch the virus to reduce the chance of getting the disease*

(I'm sure you already know that).

[Danoo]

46 minutes ago, TheTeapot said:

The only thing 'special' about this virus is that we had never met it before. Normally it would be a relatively benign infection because you'd have had it 3 times as a child, giving you the necessary protection for when you are older. All the vaccine immunity has been about recreating those conditions quickly. 

Of course, if you try and explain that kids are supposed to get infected you open yourself up to tons of abuse for wanting kids to die.

So when do we wean ourselves off vaccine-derived immunity and let nature take over?

[TheTeapot]

1 minute ago, Danoo said:

So when do we wean ourselves off vaccine-derived immunity and let nature take over?

I'm not sure I understand that question.

[Danoo]

Just now, TheTeapot said:

I'm not sure I understand that question.

Well with the need for boosters now it indicates that vaccine-derived immunity wanes after a period of time, shorter than many anticipated it would. At some stage it would be sensible to let natural, broad spectrum immunity take over, much like we have with the common cold to date, so we get a stable level of immunity across the population and over time it becomes just another relatively benign member of the coronavirus family. Otherwise we'll be relying on boosters for eternity. 

[Happier diner]

9 minutes ago, Danoo said:

Well with the need for boosters now it indicates that vaccine-derived immunity wanes after a period of time, shorter than many anticipated it would. At some stage it would be sensible to let natural, broad spectrum immunity take over, much like we have with the common cold to date, so we get a stable level of immunity across the population and over time it becomes just another relatively benign member of the coronavirus family. Otherwise we'll be relying on boosters for eternity. 

I would have thought that by next year it will just go in with the flu jab for those that have it

[TheTeapot]

Just now, Danoo said:

Well with the need for boosters now it indicates that vaccine-derived immunity wanes after a period of time, shorter than many anticipated it would. At some stage it would be sensible to let natural, broad spectrum immunity take over, much like we have with the common cold to date, so we get a stable level of immunity across the population and over time it becomes just another relatively benign member of the coronavirus family. Otherwise we'll be relying on boosters for eternity. 

Oh, I see. I don't know how much you know, but here's my simplified explanation. 

The problem is that for adults, because this is a novel virus, they haven't had childhood infections for it, so the body hasn't built up over time a resilient response through the T/B cell actions. 

The vaccine trains your immune system to respond to something new, and floods your system with these new antibodies. These are a temporary measure, float around your blood for a few months keeping guard and then retire. That's the waning bit. But now, your body is primed to respond, and a new infection will trigger the memory cells to send out the troops again. So the waning effect is seen most in your likelihood of a symptomatic infection  a few months post vaccination, cos the antibodies aren't immediately there anymore, the evidence shows that you are still unlikely to get a severe infection because the memory cells that the vaccine has trained kick into action. It's just a bit slower than having your blood full of antibodies.

The other human coronaviruses all act like this, regular exposure in childhood (its believed all 4 operate on a roughly 3 year cycle) primes you for the rest of your life. 

In answer to your question, when, I don't know, couple of years for everyone to have got infected I guess. And some time to convince those who think this is the worst virus ever to get over themselves.

[Cambon]

14 minutes ago, TheTeapot said:

Oh, I see. I don't know how much you know, but here's my simplified explanation. 

The problem is that for adults, because this is a novel virus, they haven't had childhood infections for it, so the body hasn't built up over time a resilient response through the T/B cell actions. 

The vaccine trains your immune system to respond to something new, and floods your system with these new antibodies. These are a temporary measure, float around your blood for a few months keeping guard and then retire. That's the waning bit. But now, your body is primed to respond, and a new infection will trigger the memory cells to send out the troops again. So the waning effect is seen most in your likelihood of a symptomatic infection  a few months post vaccination, cos the antibodies aren't immediately there anymore, the evidence shows that you are still unlikely to get a severe infection because the memory cells that the vaccine has trained kick into action. It's just a bit slower than having your blood full of antibodies.

The other human coronaviruses all act like this, regular exposure in childhood (its believed all 4 operate on a roughly 3 year cycle) primes you for the rest of your life. 

In answer to your question, when, I don't know, couple of years for everyone to have got infected I guess. And some time to convince those who think this is the worst virus ever to get over themselves.

Your decscription is very good. This is why only the older and vulnerable are getting boosters (at the moment). It is also probably why many are having adverse reactions to the booster, because the T cells are kicking in. 

[TheTeapot]

13 minutes ago, Cambon said:

It is also probably why many are having adverse reactions to the booster, because the T cells are kicking in. 

You're going to have to explain this oddness because that doesn't fit with my understanding.

[wrighty]

10 minutes ago, TheTeapot said:

You're going to have to explain this oddness because that doesn't fit with my understanding.

I think your understanding is pretty good. 
 

Depends on what Cambon means by adverse reaction.  If it’s the generic, relatively mild flu-like illness (like I got) it’s just proof that the vaccine is doing something immunological rather than being a non-reactive 5G chip or something. 

We feel ill largely because of our immune response. IL-1, used to be called ‘Endogenous Pyrogen’ and is a molecule released by certain cells, including T4 cells, during the immune reaction.  It raises our temperature a bit, and makes us feel ill, while doing its job in stimulating other cells to start making antibodies etc. So he’s right, a bit, in that the vaccine is stimulating T cells which will then go on to stimulate other cells to do their thing. 
 

My immunology knowledge is well out of date, but I did do a separate degree in it in addition to general med school learning. There will be loads more molecules and cell types known about these days, but I’m pretty confident that the gist of what I’m saying is right. 

[TheTeapot]

19 minutes ago, wrighty said:

I think your understanding is pretty good. 
 

Thank you.

I would very much like to talk to people about the similarities with the other coronaviruses, the importance of transmission in the young and the clear negatives of supression. It isn't being discussed enough, even though its obvious that's what the situation is. But everyone thinks I'm nuts, getting attacked from both hoaxers and doomers on twitter and reddit for expressing it.

 

Edited October 29, 2021 by TheTeapot

[Gladys]

1 hour ago, TheTeapot said:

Thank you.

I would very much like to talk to people about the similarities with the other coronaviruses, the importance of transmission in the young and the clear negatives of supression. It isn't being discussed enough, even though its obvious that's what the situation is. But everyone thinks I'm nuts, getting attacked from both hoaxers and doomers on twitter and reddit for expressing it.

 

Yes, but you just want all the children to die!😉

Actually, a good summary, thank you.  It makes sense and perhaps is a good reason now to back off on  the public obsession with infections, better to focus on vax and treating those badly affected by infection.  I saw  headline yesterday that there may be a super drug for treatment. 

 

[Cambon]

2 hours ago, wrighty said:

I think your understanding is pretty good. 
 

Depends on what Cambon means by adverse reaction.  If it’s the generic, relatively mild flu-like illness (like I got) it’s just proof that the vaccine is doing something immunological rather than being a non-reactive 5G chip or something. 

We feel ill largely because of our immune response. IL-1, used to be called ‘Endogenous Pyrogen’ and is a molecule released by certain cells, including T4 cells, during the immune reaction.  It raises our temperature a bit, and makes us feel ill, while doing its job in stimulating other cells to start making antibodies etc. So he’s right, a bit, in that the vaccine is stimulating T cells which will then go on to stimulate other cells to do their thing. 
 

My immunology knowledge is well out of date, but I did do a separate degree in it in addition to general med school learning. There will be loads more molecules and cell types known about these days, but I’m pretty confident that the gist of what I’m saying is right. 

That is basically what I was going to say. When one contracts a virus naturally, the load is tiny at first. Small amounts breathed in, etc. Being injected with a relatively enormous amount of "virus" triggers the body to launch a massive and immediate immune response, and that is what makes you feel unwell. 

[Happier diner]

1 hour ago, Cambon said:

That is basically what I was going to say. When one contracts a virus naturally, the load is tiny at first. Small amounts breathed in

Not necessarily. What if you were sleeping with someone infected or sharing a house will other infected persons? The load can vary enormously. That's why so many health workers were ill in the first wave.

Also the vaccine is not even a 'virus', whatever a 'virus' is. It's a harmless thing that looks like real actual virus to our immune systems. Not aware that it's an enormous dose, but because it can't to propagate like the real thing there needs to be just sufficient to trigger an immune response.

[Danoo]

3 hours ago, TheTeapot said:

Thank you.

I would very much like to talk to people about the similarities with the other coronaviruses, the importance of transmission in the young and the clear negatives of supression. It isn't being discussed enough, even though its obvious that's what the situation is. But everyone thinks I'm nuts, getting attacked from both hoaxers and doomers on twitter and reddit for expressing it.

 

I think you have hit the nail on the head.

No-one wants to have a debate about it. It's like Brexit, Trump etc... We have created a binary society whereby you are either for or against something, there is no grey area for a genuine discussion. In literally everything. 

I overheard a discussion the other week while minding my own business having a coffee in Costa at the sea terminal. A group of what I presumed were students, young and naive, saying it''s not good enough to not be racist anymore, you had to be anti-racist, which reminds me of this topic. Discussion is not allowed. You are either an anti-vaxxer or a big pharma advocate, for daring to have an opinion which isn't at one extreme of the other. 

[Roxanne]

But Danoo, aren’t you guilty of calling anyone who disagrees with you a ‘doommonger?  Where does that fit in your narrative of above?