Out of the blue Posted June 1, 2020 Share Posted June 1, 2020 15 minutes ago, wrighty said: If you're going to edit your posts after I've started replying to them things will get missed Richard! Herd immunity is a concept. We are assuming that prior infection with the virus confers a degree of immunity against future infection - it may not be permanent nor complete - as I'm not aware of another infection that doesn't. So the more people infected, the more likely we'll have a degree of herd immunity, so that future outbreaks are less likely/smaller/more manageable etc. People seem very wary of using the term as it's been widely discredited as a strategy for managing the initial epidemics, but it is still a valid concept. How else will mass vaccination work? Vaccinating the population is simply a means of achieving herd immunity without people getting an infection. Wrighty, in your opinion are the government likely to be persuaded to undo lockdown in its entirety very shortly or are we more likely to continue with the water torture that is ‘baby steps’. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrighty Posted June 1, 2020 Share Posted June 1, 2020 1 minute ago, RIchard Britten said: So you're "hoping" for herd immunity which relies on two things we don't have and either won't have for some time or at all, 1) a valid vaccine 2) proof that the virus cannot infect those who have already been infected? Not intending that to sound as antagonistic as it appears, just trying to understand why a medically professional is talking about herd immunity at this stage of the pandemic, when groups such as the WHO says relying on herd immunity with regards to CV-19 is "dangerous". Well you are being either deliberately antagonistic, or again not reading before you post. WHO says 'relying' on herd immunity is dangerous. They don't say 'talking' about it is wrong. I certainly am 'hoping' for it, as is everyone, because the alternative is a perpetual state of paralysis with fear of getting covid, not being allowed to do much or go anywhere because of covid, and basically staying in your house re-watching repeats on Netflix until you die. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dog's Dangly Bits Posted June 1, 2020 Share Posted June 1, 2020 Richard is intentionally antagonistic. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RIchard Britten Posted June 1, 2020 Share Posted June 1, 2020 Just now, wrighty said: Well you are being either deliberately antagonistic, or again not reading before you post. WHO says 'relying' on herd immunity is dangerous. They don't say 'talking' about it is wrong. I certainly am 'hoping' for it, as is everyone, because the alternative is a perpetual state of paralysis with fear of getting covid, not being allowed to do much or go anywhere because of covid, and basically staying in your house re-watching repeats on Netflix until you die. But we aren't at the talking about it stage yet. You only have to look at comments here and on other social media platforms, to see that the term and concept of "herd immunity" has been taken up as some magic cure-all by the "masses" and an excuse to end the lock down prematurely. You yourself said "...are usefully adding to the island's herd immunity." There is no herd immunity, and idiots seeing a medical profession say things like that are only going to reinforce their skewed understand of the situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RIchard Britten Posted June 1, 2020 Share Posted June 1, 2020 Just now, The Dog's Dangly Bits said: Richard is intentionally antagonistic. He said antagonistically... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted June 1, 2020 Share Posted June 1, 2020 12 minutes ago, wrighty said: Well you are being either deliberately antagonistic, or again not reading before you post. WHO says 'relying' on herd immunity is dangerous. They don't say 'talking' about it is wrong. I certainly am 'hoping' for it, as is everyone, because the alternative is a perpetual state of paralysis with fear of getting covid, not being allowed to do much or go anywhere because of covid, and basically staying in your house re-watching repeats on Netflix until you die. It's not going very well for Sweden. They are vying for top position of most fatalities per capita and immunity is probably not building. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrighty Posted June 1, 2020 Share Posted June 1, 2020 3 minutes ago, RIchard Britten said: But we aren't at the talking about it stage yet. You only have to look at comments here and on other social media platforms, to see that the term and concept of "herd immunity" has been taken up as some magic cure-all by the "masses" and an excuse to end the lock down prematurely. You yourself said "...are usefully adding to the island's herd immunity." There is no herd immunity, and idiots seeing a medical profession say things like that are only going to reinforce their skewed understand of the situation. I don't think I've seen anyone, anywhere, suggest that herd immunity has yet been achieved. Nobody is using it as an excuse to end lock down - prematurely or otherwise, lockdowns are being scaled back to get society and the economy up and running, and because low levels of new cases combined with continued hygiene measures etc are thought to be sufficient to keep cases under control. My response you've partially quoted there (you do that a lot!) was a somewhat flippant riposte to your 'whataboutery' regarding the hoards of invisible cases over here you seem convinced, on the basis of zero evidence, that we must have. Not at the talking about it stage? Does that include not talking about vaccines Richard? We might not have one that's proven yet, but we still need to talk about them. Well you might not if you're content to stay indoors for the rest of your life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted June 1, 2020 Share Posted June 1, 2020 1 minute ago, wrighty said: Not at the talking about it stage? Does that include not talking about vaccines Richard? We might not have one that's proven yet, but we still need to talk about them. Well you might not if you're content to stay indoors for the rest of your life. I suspect a lot of people who spend all day online actually are content to stay indoors for the rest of their days... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Newbie Posted June 1, 2020 Share Posted June 1, 2020 1 minute ago, wrighty said: I don't think I've seen anyone, anywhere, suggest that herd immunity has yet been achieved. Nobody is using it as an excuse to end lock down - prematurely or otherwise, lockdowns are being scaled back to get society and the economy up and running, and because low levels of new cases combined with continued hygiene measures etc are thought to be sufficient to keep cases under control. Would you agree herd immunity is hopefully a fortuitous byproduct of all of this? As you say if it doesn’t happen that really we all have to stay at home watching Netflix’s for a good few years yet as it’s all been a bit pointless other than taking some pressure off the NHS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RIchard Britten Posted June 1, 2020 Share Posted June 1, 2020 (edited) We're talking about herd immunity, not vaccines. 30 seconds and a google search found this: https://www.harrogateadvertiser.co.uk/news/opinion/letters/letter-end-lockdown-urgently-and-return-herd-immunity-plan-2860713 "The PM must admit an error of judgement and revert to his original ‘herd immunity’ policy as a matter of urgency before it is too late. Let the human immune system do its job and let’s get back to work before too many businesses collapse." Yes, it is from an opinion post, but if one idiot thinks it...well, we know what the "masses" are like. Edit to add: https://metro.co.uk/2020/04/04/herd-immunity-considered-end-lockdown-pms-adviser-says-12507209/ "A senior science adviser to the government has said the UK should consider letting people catch coronavirus in the safest way possible. Professor Graham Medley, who leads the government’s disease modelling team, argued Britain has ‘painted itself into a corner’ with a lockdown which could eventually lead to more harm than the disease itself. He told The Times today: ‘We will have done three weeks of this lockdown so there’s a big decision coming up on 13 April. In broad terms are we going to continue to harm children to protect vulnerable people, or not?’ ‘The measures to control [the disease] cause harm. The principal one is economic, and I don’t mean to the economy generally, I mean to the incomes of people who rely on a continuous stream of money and their children, particularly the school closure aspect ." Edited June 1, 2020 by RIchard Britten Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thommo2010 Posted June 1, 2020 Share Posted June 1, 2020 12 minutes ago, P.K. said: It's not going very well for Sweden. They are vying for top position of most fatalities per capita and immunity is probably not building. Sweden yesterday announced their first day of no deaths Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golfer Posted June 1, 2020 Share Posted June 1, 2020 13 minutes ago, RIchard Britten said: We're talking about herd immunity, not vaccines. 30 seconds and a google search found this: https://www.harrogateadvertiser.co.uk/news/opinion/letters/letter-end-lockdown-urgently-and-return-herd-immunity-plan-2860713 "The PM must admit an error of judgement and revert to his original ‘herd immunity’ policy as a matter of urgency before it is too late. Let the human immune system do its job and let’s get back to work before too many businesses collapse." Yes, it is from an opinion post, but if one idiot thinks it...well, we know what the "masses" are like. Edit to add: https://metro.co.uk/2020/04/04/herd-immunity-considered-end-lockdown-pms-adviser-says-12507209/ "A senior science adviser to the government has said the UK should consider letting people catch coronavirus in the safest way possible. Professor Graham Medley, who leads the government’s disease modelling team, argued Britain has ‘painted itself into a corner’ with a lockdown which could eventually lead to more harm than the disease itself. He told The Times today: ‘We will have done three weeks of this lockdown so there’s a big decision coming up on 13 April. In broad terms are we going to continue to harm children to protect vulnerable people, or not?’ ‘The measures to control [the disease] cause harm. The principal one is economic, and I don’t mean to the economy generally, I mean to the incomes of people who rely on a continuous stream of money and their children, particularly the school closure aspect ." What a knob, get back to sheltering in the U.K. And let IOM residents discuss what's best for IOM. 1 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrighty Posted June 1, 2020 Share Posted June 1, 2020 1 hour ago, RIchard Britten said: We're talking about herd immunity, not vaccines. And in that single sentence you demonstrate you don't understand. A vaccine results in herd immunity if it works. They're not alternative strategies. Herd immunity is simply the state of a population where the proportion of immune individuals is at or above 1-1/R0. If you have that your Rt will be effectively be below 1 and sustained transmission will not happen. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrighty Posted June 1, 2020 Share Posted June 1, 2020 1 hour ago, thommo2010 said: Sweden yesterday announced their first day of no deaths To be fair, the Swedes don't generally count many at all over the weekend. See what they say tomorrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wright Posted June 1, 2020 Share Posted June 1, 2020 Just so there is transparency, Richard Britten is gone. Permanently. Not his politics. Just the aggression to other posters in the 14 hours since his previous ban ended. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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