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12 hours ago, Lost Login said:

How can any of us judge? We have not seen the full Yorkshire report, we have not seen the evidence that was to be put before a tribunal. Azeem Rafiq has stated that the treatment he received left him close to taking his own life. How do you quantify that financially?

 

Well that’s a question that the courts and tribunals have to grapple with on a regular basis when they make their awards.

No doubt in similar situations , and I am not saying this is the case here, legal advisers may advise that the victim of such abuse amplify the distress caused, as a negotiating tool to achieve the maximum result ( It’s their job and no doubt the bigger sum awarded the more they get)

Yes we’ve not seen the full report and the evidence that was to be put before a tribunal.

All that is in the public domain is that Azeem was called the “P” word and that he has received a six figure sum as some sort of compensation. Which taking court awards as a benchmark would seem generous to say the least.
 



Which is why I have questioned the proportionality. 
 

If it’s a punitive award why not give some or all of it to the Cricketing Board or whatever it is, in the same way that football clubs whose “fans” are found guilty of racist behavior are fined and those fines go to the governing body ( as I understand it)

 

Edited by The Voice of Reason
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9 hours ago, The Voice of Reason said:

Well that’s a question that the courts and tribunals have to grapple with on a regular basis when they make their awards.

No doubt in similar situations , and I am not saying this is the case here, legal advisers may advise that the victim of such abuse amplify the distress caused, as a negotiating tool to achieve the maximum result ( It’s their job and no doubt the bigger sum awarded the more they get)

Yes we’ve not seen the full report and the evidence that was to be put before a tribunal.

All that is in the public domain is that Azeem was called the “P” word and that he has received a six figure sum as some sort of compensation. Which taking court awards as a benchmark would seem generous to say the least.

Which is why I have questioned the proportionality. 

If it’s a punitive award why not give some or all of it to the Cricketing Board or whatever it is, in the same way that football clubs whose “fans” are found guilty of racist behavior are fined and those fines go to the governing body ( as I understand it)

It is not true that "All that is in the public domain is that Azeem was called the “P” word and that he has received a six figure sum as some sort of compensation." For a start at least 7 of 43 complaints about racial harassment and abuse were upheld by Yorkshire CCC own enquiry and initially he was offered the money to keep quiet. YCCC could hardly make him a smaller offer when they removed that requirement as that would have meant they were trying to buy his silence.

For somebody who seems to want to give the impression that they are only questioning the amount in a neutral manner that seems far from the case.  You have made a suggestion that the individual exaggerated the case, stated that the award was generous to say the least, suggested that the award may have been punitive when you have no idea of the loss of earnings.

As for your suggestion that some money should go to the cricketing board, well firstly the ECB are not exactly a body with an exemplary record but the cases you use as an example are cases where a governing body has taken action against a club. I struggle to think of an employment case where an individual who has won the case has been required to pay over part of the award to a governing body.     

Your first post appeared to play down the matter as simply being a bit of banter and you are still simply referring to it as being a matter of Azeem just being called the ""P". It does come across to me that you seem to be upset about this award  for some reason. Could it possibly be because the award was to somebody who it non white as that is the strong impression I am getting from your posts.  

Edited by Lost Login
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1 hour ago, Lost Login said:

    

Your first post appeared to play down the matter as simply being a bit of banter and you are still simply referring to it as being a matter of Azeem just being called the ""P". It does come across to me that you seem to be upset about this award  for some reason. Could it possibly be because the award was to somebody who it non white as that is the strong impression I am getting from your posts.  

You really are a nasty piece of work 

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11 hours ago, The Voice of Reason said:

If it’s a punitive award why not give some or all of it to the Cricketing Board or whatever it is, in the same way that football clubs whose “fans” are found guilty of racist behavior are fined and those fines go to the governing body ( as I understand it)

The relationship between YCCC and Azeem Rafik is not comparable to the relationship between Football Clubs and their fans.

Azeem Rafik was employed by YCCC.

As for the compensation he has received it was not a figure decided by an employment tribunal as YCCC decided to settle the matter outside of the tribunal (presumably they didn't want further details being made public or knew they were going to lose). 

The compensation would likely be based around loss of earnings and compensation for injury to feelings.  An award for injury to feelings is based on the vento bands which you can look up.

You can look up the average awards at employment tribunals online.  The highest award in 2019/20 for instance was £265,719.

I don't understand why you seem to have an issue with the settlement figure.  Its not an unusual. 

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17 minutes ago, manxman1980 said:

The relationship between YCCC and Azeem Rafik is not comparable to the relationship between Football Clubs and their fans.

Azeem Rafik was employed by YCCC.

As for the compensation he has received it was not a figure decided by an employment tribunal as YCCC decided to settle the matter outside of the tribunal (presumably they didn't want further details being made public or knew they were going to lose). 

The compensation would likely be based around loss of earnings and compensation for injury to feelings.  An award for injury to feelings is based on the vent bands which you can look up.

You can look up the average awards at employment tribunals online.  The highest award in 2019/20 for instance was £265,719.

I don't understand why you seem to have an issue with the settlement figure.  Its not an unusual. 

OK

Thanks for your measured response.

I think we’ll leave it at that.

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1 hour ago, The Voice of Reason said:

You really are a nasty piece of work 

Says the poster who suggested a person that was found to have been subject racial harassment and abuse may have exaggerated the case to get higher compensation and suggested the award was generous. The same poster who appears to give credence to the claim that the use of the “P” word was friendly banter. 

 

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15 minutes ago, Lost Login said:

Says the poster who suggested a person that was found to have been subject racial harassment and abuse may have exaggerated the case to get higher compensation and suggested the award was generous. The same poster who appears to give credence to the claim that the use of the “P” word was friendly banter. 

 

If you read my post correctly you will see that I said I was not saying any exaggeration of the case occurred here.

The award does seem generous to me when compared with say awards for industrial accidents where limbs are lost etc That is why I started the discussion little knowing it would lead to implications of racist motives.

But as Manxman80 has explained such an award is not unusual and I accept that

Nor did I give any credence to the claim that the use of the P word was friendly banter. This was in the Sky News report that I quoted. I have never opined that the use of such a word is friendly banter. My own opinion is exactly the opposite.

The implication you made using these falsehoods is both scurrilous and hurtful and I would be obliged if you would retract it.

I don’t intend to discuss this further.

 

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1 hour ago, manxman1980 said:

As for the compensation he has received it was not a figure decided by an employment tribunal as YCCC decided to settle the matter outside of the tribunal (presumably they didn't want further details being made public or knew they were going to lose). 

The compensation would likely be based around loss of earnings and compensation for injury to feelings.  An award for injury to feelings is based on the vento bands which you can look up.

You can look up the average awards at employment tribunals online.  The highest award in 2019/20 for instance was £265,719.

I don't understand why you seem to have an issue with the settlement figure.  Its not an unusual. 

YCCC originally offered the sum on condition he stayed silent. It was only when there were changes to the board following  the uproar about the way YCCC were handing the matter, including the loss of major sponsors, that YCCC took the NDA requirement out. Whether the amount was appropriate and how it was calculated I have no information on which to make a judgement but reducing the amount offered on withdrawing the NDA would, I expect, not been have a viable option, as it would have been very hard for YCCC to argue that the money was not offered just to buy the guys silence. 

There has long been a question of racism, direct or overt, in respect of cricket in England at the top levels. It is obviously a sport that is very popular in South Asia and the UK has a large South Asian community many of whom play cricket yet that diversity is not really reflected at the highest levels. It is reckoned that over 30% of club players are of South Asian decent yet only 4% of county players. That were the figures from a few years back

Cricket at present appears to reflect football in the 1970's were you would see very view none white players at the top level. I think Viv Anderson was the first black player to play for England in the late 1970s. I don't think that cricket at present is quite in that position but something appears to be going wrong somewhere if the numbers of South Asians paling Cricket at lower levels is not reflected at the top levels. It maybe nothing to do with race, rather that it is basically a case that you  need to have gone to public school to get the coaching.

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10 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said:

If you read my post correctly you will see that I said I was not saying any exaggeration of the case occurred here.

The award does seem generous to me when compared with say awards for industrial accidents where limbs are lost etc That is why I started the discussion little knowing it would lead to implications of racist motives.

But as Manxman80 has explained such an award is not unusual and I accept that

Nor did I give any credence to the claim that the use of the P word was friendly banter. This was in the Sky News report that I quoted. I have never opined that the use of such a word is friendly banter. My own opinion is exactly the opposite.

The implication you made using these falsehoods is both scurrilous and hurtful and I would be obliged if you would retract it.

I don’t intend to discuss this further.

 

All your posts seem to be questioning the outcome.  If you repeat what others says do not be surprised if you get associated with those view. 

Your posts were classic examples of somebody saying I am not alleging X and then making posts suggesting why X is correct. Maybe you should be more careful of how you post.

 

 

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47 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said:

The award does seem generous to me when compared with say awards for industrial accidents where limbs are lost etc That is why I started the discussion little knowing it would lead to implications of racist motives.

But as Manxman80 has explained such an award is not unusual and I accept that

Let's be clear about this.  As far as I can tell the amount paid by YCCC was part of a settlement agreement and was not an award made by an employment tribunal.  The settlement will have taken account of what a possible employment tribunal award would be though.

38 minutes ago, Lost Login said:

YCCC originally offered the sum on condition he stayed silent. It was only when there were changes to the board following  the uproar about the way YCCC were handing the matter, including the loss of major sponsors, that YCCC took the NDA requirement out. Whether the amount was appropriate and how it was calculated I have no information on which to make a judgement but reducing the amount offered on withdrawing the NDA would, I expect, not been have a viable option, as it would have been very hard for YCCC to argue that the money was not offered just to buy the guys silence. 

Every single settlement agreement I have seen has included a NDA.  There are plenty of reasons for doing so which can include the employer not wanting other employees to find out about the agreement or it could be to prevent information coming into the public domain that they would prefer to remain undisclosed. 

Again the actions of YCCC in respect of the NDA is not unusual.

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2 minutes ago, Ghost Ship said:

I see Azeem Rafiq has now had to apologise for anti-semitic language he used in messages from ten years ago.

Azeem Rafiq apologises for historical anti-Semitic messages - BBC Sport

Plus another - former - Yorkshire player has apologised for racist language in tweets from 2012.

Why is he allowed to apologise, but other people who have behaved in a similar manner have lost their jobs? 

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