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Black Lives Matter

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There are plenty of black people in the U.S. who won't have anything to do with this. They're the ones who've got on and have taken the opportunites that are there. They've used the education system, employment opportunities, hard work and self-reliance to better themselves. Many of them are well represented in the military, judiciary, medicine, education, politics, and so on. They know their history and the black experience in America; but they also know that a significant part of the problem lies within black culture itself; its sense of victimhood and inner grudge; rejection of the institutions and mainstream culture that can empower and improve; a negative work ethic etc.

Contrast this with other immigrant groups in America: Italians, Irish, Poles, Jews, Russians, Germans, Chinese, Latinos, etc. All groups who came with fuck all and certainly didn't have any 'white privilege'. They've got on with it and bettered themselves - because that's the answer. 

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White privilege is me not being called a monkey at school or on the footy pitch.  It's me knowing that if I'm unsuccessful for a job application, it isn't anything to do with my skin colour.  It's about knowing that people aren't judging me by my skin colour.  It's about knowing that I'm not going to be treated in a certain way by the police because of my skin colour. And so on.

I absolutely do not feel guilty about it, and I don't see why anyone thinks that they're supposed to be feel guilty about it.  That's not what it's about at all, but it is typical of the straw-manning going on that people are claiming that's what it's about.

Highlighting the concept of white privilege is purely supposed to make you think about the various ways in which non-white people have to deal with things that we as white people don't.  With the aim being that we take a step back and understand why movements like Black Lives Matter have come about, and perhaps try to move forward with that understanding.  Rather than dismissing it all out of hand like Stu did.

On the subject of Stu as I've mentioned previously, I don't think that he's racist and I don't think he should have been suspended or lose his job.  But I do think he handled the callers badly by basically dismissing what they were saying rather than trying to understand it in any way.  He didn't need to agree with them and tell them that they were right as I've seen some people disingenuously suggest on here, he just shouldn't have arrogantly dismissed them as being wrong.

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12 minutes ago, Shake me up Judy said:

 a significant part of the problem lies within black culture itself; its sense of victimhood and inner grudge; rejection of the institutions and mainstream culture that can empower and improve; a negative work ethic etc.

There is so much wrong with this. But most importantly, what do you really mean when you say mainstream?

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14 minutes ago, Shake me up Judy said:

There are plenty of black people in the U.S. who won't have anything to do with this. They're the ones who've got on and have taken the opportunites that are there. They've used the education system, employment opportunities, hard work and self-reliance to better themselves. Many of them are well represented in the military, judiciary, medicine, education, politics, and so on. They know their history and the black experience in America; but they also know that a significant part of the problem lies within black culture itself; its sense of victimhood and inner grudge; rejection of the institutions and mainstream culture that can empower and improve; a negative work ethic etc.

Contrast this with other immigrant groups in America: Italians, Irish, Poles, Jews, Russians, Germans, Chinese, Latinos, etc. All groups who came with fuck all and certainly didn't have any 'white privilege'. They've got on with it and bettered themselves - because that's the answer. 

And then you see ill-informed stuff like this which makes you realise there's no point even trying to discuss matters with some people.

I don't even know where to start with bollocks like that.

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8 minutes ago, pongo said:

There is so much wrong with this. But most importantly, what do you really mean when you say mainstream?

You see, that's your problem right there Pongo. You're problematising a common sense term and looking for unwitting meanings and racial undertones in language. 

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15 minutes ago, Chef Raekwon said:

He didn't need to agree with them and tell them that they were right as I've seen some people disingenuously suggest on here, he just shouldn't have arrogantly dismissed them as being wrong.

He was not given the opportunity to put forward his view and discuss it.  If you think it is disingenuous to say that it appeared the only answer the callers wanted was for him to agree, listen to the audio again.

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Posted (edited)
31 minutes ago, Gladys said:

I did watch it and it is terrifying the extent of militarization of the US police, the lack of real accountability and oversight,  and the entrenched police culture.  The current discussion on standing down (I think that is the phrase)  the police in some US states  is one that needs to happen and happen quick.  

The first contention that the US police have basically become militarised social workers is one that really needs action - pulling back on social workers but expecting the police to deal with the same problems, with arms and then when the problems aren't fixed, hire more militarised police. The Dallas police officer was particularly eloquent. 

That is a real purpose for demonstrating, a specific set of issues and aspects up for debate .  100% behind that, but I am still not convinced for the reasons I have given before that BLM  and more specifically BLM IOM is right at this time and in this place.

A few years ago, I met an American woman visiting the island in a work connected context.  The conversation turned to the problem of the native American population in her state.  The fact that they had been given reservations (I am sure that is how she referred to them, not sure if that is officially what they are still called) but had turned them into a modern day Sodom and Gomorrah full of casinos with very high unemployment, alcohol abuse, crime and social depravity, yet were still calling for rights.  What else did they expect? After all, and these were her exact words; "they are a conquered nation".  

She was not an uneducated redneck, white trash, she was highly intelligent, quite young and a high achiever ( in a female trailblazer kind of way that I won't specify).  In every other way she was an admirable person, but she had that view. 

Does the BLM movement sufficiently cover the native American issue or other oppressed minorities in the wider perception?  It doesn't.  Does the BLM IOM reflect the minority issues here?  In my view, it does not. 

For the reasons I have explained elsewhere, I am not convinced that responding to BLM by saying all lives matter is wrong or  more fundamentally, racist.  To use the trite analogy of a house on fire, I would say there are several houses on fire, why is your house fire more important than the others blazing away off the main road of international publicity, or the little cottage quietly smoldering in the distant village? 

Good good, I'm glad you watched it, I would urge everyone else to do the same. It's a comedy show.

You make some good points. I don't know about anyone else but I find the militarization of the police in the UK troubling. I know they've got their reasons, but seeing armed police (as in guns) on our streets makes me very uncomfortable. I was at a gig on the docks in Liverpool a few years back,shortly after the Manchester bombing, and leaving it there were basically soldiers in police uniforms all over the place, some of them right out in the open but also some sort of hidden away in little alleyways. I assume it was to make people feel safe, but it didn't work on me. Don't even mention airports of busy train stations...

There are a couple of other problems with armed police in the UK. One is that mistakes happen, like the Jean Charles De Menezes case, which was just awful, and the other is that the more tooled up the police are, the more tooled up their opponents. It's not a healthy thing.

I suppose it is different in America though, what with their 2nd amendment rights and all. But canadians all have guns too, but their police don't generally stomp around as stormtroopers. Or not when I was last there anyway.

The police as social worker argument is absolutely true, and it even happens here. There have been countless times where people having mental health crises or whatever who've ended up in court, in jail, become criminals because its been the police who've had to deal with them when their problems have got too much. It's a real problem all over the place, and it desperately needs sorting out. Try and speak to the mental health team over here about anything other than an immediate potential suicide and you get stuck on a 6 month waiting list. Its pathetic, and is bound to be much worse in other places.

The first nations peoples of north america have been shat on ever since the arrival of europeans, and it carries on to this day. I stayed on the Quatsino First Nations reserve for a few days once, they were so nice but there was a huge undercurrent of sadness in them. When wandering around cities in the pacific northwest you will often find FN people utterly hammered, homeless and looked down upon, its nasty, and seeing it myself certainly changed my view of both the US and Canada.

I honestly have no idea what the point of todays BLM march is in the Isle of Man, and I am staunchly anti-racist.

 

 

Edited by TheTeapot
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1 minute ago, Shake me up Judy said:

What's your problem Chief ?

Well given your diatribe about how the issue is black people being lazy etc perhaps you'd like to tell that to the young black Manx lady who's recently talked about her experiences of discrimination on the Isle of Man and let her know that it's actually her fault?

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2 minutes ago, Gladys said:

He was not given the opportunity to put forward his view and discuss it.  If you think it is disingenuous to say that it appeared the only answer the callers wanted was for him to agree, listen to the audio again.

I've listened to it thank you very much, and I'm pretty sure if he'd responded in a slightly less dismissive manner then it would have gone much better for him.

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7 minutes ago, Shake me up Judy said:

You see, that's your problem right there Pongo. You're problematising a common sense term and looking for unwitting meanings and racial undertones in language

It's front and centre in what you wrote, above. And certainly not unwitting.

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I am glad you shared it, Teapot. It crystallised many of the issues in my head, particularly on the social worker aspect.  Yes, you are right, the police are being used in too many situations where it is not primarily a law and order issue, but it becomes one and in they go.  

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4 minutes ago, Shake me up Judy said:

Five and a half hours then. What are you going to do for all that time ?

Thry have covered what they are going to do until 1310, not sure what they are going to do from then until 1730.

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