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Black Lives Matter

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11 minutes ago, Shake me up Judy said:

A bit like something wasn't right when the Met murdered that fella on a train for no reason after following him, allowing him to get on the train with nothing of danger on his person.

You can't possibly put yourself in the shoes of the cops who went on that train thinking the guy was about to blow it up. They were following instructions and didn't make the decisions that led to that outcome. There's been a full enquiry and I think they were fully exonerated, but I'd have to google that to check. A terrible tragedy though.

first he had a coat, then he didn't, executed by the state.

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Lots of experts in covert surveillance and armed counter-terrorist ops here today. Bigger know it alls than Derek Fucking Flint (and that's going some):D

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2 hours ago, The Dog's Dangly Bits said:

Could the police have acted differently?

Were their lives at risk do you think?

I'm not disputing the victim could have done things differently.   He definitely could.

Put in simple terms, if that was a situation on the island and it was your son would you think, being unarmed aside of a taser, that death would be the right outcome?

I dont see this as a race issue.  It just seems to be that the constant "shoot to kill first and worry about it later" results in situations like this where he had been shot 3 times in the back.  Something isn't right there.

A bit like something wasn't right when the Met murdered that fella on a train for no reason after following him, allowing him to get on the train with nothing of danger on his person.

Amazing just how clever some people are after the event

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8 minutes ago, Neil Down said:

Amazing just how clever some people are after the event

except howard, he was thick before, during and will be after this covid shit has fucked off.

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13 minutes ago, Neil Down said:

Amazing just how clever some people are after the event

That event is on the news at the moment.  You don't need to be particularly clever (either at the time or in hindsight) to realise lethal force wasn't required.

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In this case, and the London Tube ‘execution’ case you have to see it from not just the events we can see on the videos, but also the heightened state of alert and split-second decision making required. 
 

The drive-thru case? If he was shot from behind, can the shooter have been certain it was the taser being pointed and not a firearm? Easy to say afterwards of course. And in the tube case, there’d been a bomb the previous day. He jumped a barrier and failed to stop on command. He was rightly, in my view given the situation there and then and the belief he was a second bomber, executed. 
 

Hindsight bias needs to be avoided. 

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46 minutes ago, wrighty said:

And in the tube case, there’d been a bomb the previous day. He jumped a barrier and failed to stop on command. He was rightly, in my view given the situation there and then and the belief he was a second bomber, executed. 

Except he didn't jump the barrier or fail to stop on command.  This is what happens all the time.  The police leak to the media what they would like to have happened and people believe it, even though it turns out later not to be true.  The death of Jean Charles de Menezes, because it was eventually closely examined, should be a warning to all of us to examine the official line in such things very sceptically.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, wrighty said:

In this case, and the London Tube ‘execution’ case you have to see it from not just the events we can see on the videos, but also the heightened state of alert and split-second decision making required. 
 

The drive-thru case? If he was shot from behind, can the shooter have been certain it was the taser being pointed and not a firearm? Easy to say afterwards of course. And in the tube case, there’d been a bomb the previous day. He jumped a barrier and failed to stop on command. He was rightly, in my view given the situation there and then and the belief he was a second bomber, executed. 
 

Hindsight bias needs to be avoided. 

That wasn't the case Wrighty I'm afraid.

Also if you suspected a terrorist had a bomb strapped to him why would you follow him from his house and allow him to get to a busy station and the tube?

Given the heightened state of alert you mention at the time this is EXACTLY why he should have been stopped the moment he left his house.  They actually thought it was somone else.

As for the drive thru case - he was out of the car and searched.   Why would either cop think it was a firearm when it is bright yellow and a taser which they knew he had?

Edited by The Dog's Dangly Bits

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59 minutes ago, Roger Mexico said:

Except he didn't jump the barrier or fail to stop on command.  This is what happens all the time.  The police leak to the media what they would like to have happened and people believe it, even though it turns out later not to be true.  The death of Jean Charles de Menezes, because it was eventually closely examined, should be a warning to all of us to examine the official line in such things very sceptically.

 

52 minutes ago, The Dog's Dangly Bits said:

That wasn't the case Wrighty I'm afraid.

Also if you suspected a terrorist had a bomb strapped to him why would you follow him from his house and allow him to get to a busy station and the tube?

Given the heightened state of alert you mention at the time this is EXACTLY why he should have been stopped the moment he left his house.  They actually thought it was somone else.

Thanks for straightening me out on that - perhaps a bit of hindsight on my part before commenting on this would have been appropriate.  The investigation however seems to have done what I suggested - identified the errors, but accepted the immense stress the cops were under and not blamed an individual for his killing.

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I am sure there is another human element in these cases too which I don't believe anyone has mentioned yet, and that is history between the police officers and the suspects. Yes, there is the confrontational landscape. Yes, undoubtedly, there is an element of racism, but if on top of that there is also a record of previous as long as your arm then that might be the difference between a fatal outcome or not. The previous might be lifelong  victimisation if you subscribe to BLM narrative or a scumbag indulging in life of crime if you believe the police. Shouldn't work that way, but everyone is human. 

 

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I'd like to make a correction. I previously stated that the graffiti said "ACAB" but have realised I was wrong. It was a racist word which I won't repeat.

However, I definitely did see graffiti that said "ACAB" in a part of Douglas. I just can't find it anywhere now.

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1 hour ago, wrighty said:

 

Thanks for straightening me out on that - perhaps a bit of hindsight on my part before commenting on this would have been appropriate.  The investigation however seems to have done what I suggested - identified the errors, but accepted the immense stress the cops were under and not blamed an individual for his killing.

I get all of that.  I just don't understand why he isn't stopped as he leaves his house.  They followed him.  Let him get on a bus.  Then into a Tube station.  Then onto a train.

If you believe you are following a terrorist carrying a bomb what are you actually waiting for?

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Perhaps they hoped he'd lead them to his accomplices ? I've no idea really and have never read up on the case. I'm sure someone on here has...

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13 minutes ago, The Dog's Dangly Bits said:

I get all of that.  I just don't understand why he isn't stopped as he leaves his house.  They followed him.  Let him get on a bus.  Then into a Tube station.  Then onto a train.

If you believe you are following a terrorist carrying a bomb what are you actually waiting for?

There are several conspiracy theories floating around about that. Unfortunately I don't know who to believe about anything anymore.

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