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"black lives matter" March on Tuesday


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4 hours ago, Irkin said:

Really? Don't see many people being hounded out of office, losing their livelihood, being publicly shamed and forced to apologise or take a knee over agreeing with the approved orthodoxy.

You use the word lazy but imo it's intellectually lazy in the extreme to just accept the prevailing narrative when there is plenty of evidence to the contrary.

I think that your idea of the ‘approved orthodoxy’ and ‘prevailing narrative’ is very different to mine. 

I strongly recommend that you drag yourself away from YouTube opinionistas and read some books and newspapers. Why you would chose to believe a few people of colour on social media with unknown motivation over the hundreds of thousands of people that have marched is beyond me; could it be that their narrative suits your own cosy view?

The prevailing narrative is of structural racism and white privilege (a term I dislike but it’s all we’ve got at the moment) if you think it’s the opposite then you’re lying to yourself.  

What is it about true racial equality that scares you?

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20 hours ago, Irkin said:

@The Dog's Dangly Bits

They have "demands for a change in education as well as legislation. This includes black history being taught in every school; harsher sentences on all hate crimes, racism and xenophobia; having ’white privilege’ studied and more."

Apparently there is a petition (although I have not been able to find it) with at last count 1500 signatures. So presumably that is 1500 people who believe there is systemic racism and police brutality towards blacks and want to change our laws and education system to reflect that. I also think their proposals will do nothing for free speech and personal liberty in which I passionately believe.

 

http://www.iomtoday.co.im/article.cfm?id=56096&headline=Black Lives Matter demonstration to take place today&sectionIs=news&searchyear=2020

" created a Twitter account to highlight the voices of ethnic minority groups in the island" - reminder  - our government with (no consent) has made Manx people a minority on the island, I somehow doubt we'll be allowed a group.

"it demands for a change in education as well as legislation.

This includes black history being taught in every school; harsher sentences on all hate crimes, racism and xenophobia; having ’white privilege’ studied and more."

 - What a coincidence in timing , seems like it's scripted, do you think the government might be involved?

Can someone remind me of the "white privilege" - of the victims of grooming gangs in the UK?

Or Emily Jones?

Or Tony Timpa?

Compare reactions.

 

Edited by Lagman
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50 minutes ago, Lagman said:

There has been a lot of differences between the amount of deaths in the U.S. and Europe (UK in particular) and places like Japan and Australia etc. Different strains may be part of the explanation -

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-scientists-identify-more-contagious-mutant-coronavirus-strain-sweeping-europe-and-us-11983554

http://www.pharmafile.com/news/548147/scientists-uk-and-us-identify-hundreds-mutations-covid-19-virus

 

Thanks for the links. There doesn't seem to be much more up to date available information on that particular mutation, and those articles which are almost the same don't argue that it is mutating to a more dangerous strain. There are plenty of reports out there that suggest coronaviruses tend to remain relatively stable throughout their mutations. I don't doubt it can happen, and I'm sure thousand of people are working on identifying if it will happen. I wouldn't say it is anything to worry about though.

You might be interested to read this one https://www.virology.ws/2020/05/07/there-is-one-and-only-one-strain-of-sars-cov-2/

Edited by TheTeapot
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6 minutes ago, Lagman said:

Can someone remind me of the "white privilege" - of the victims of grooming gangs in the UK?

Or Emily Jones?

Or Tony Timpa?

Compare reactions.

 

What point are you trying to make there? 

Do you believe that because white people are sometimes the victims of violence at the hands of people of colour that violence against people of colour cannot be racially motivated? 

Do you believe that the victims of grooming gangs were targeted because they were white? If so where is your evidence to support that belief?

Do you believe that because US police occasionally use excessive force on white people that not one single example of Black People being killed by US Police is racially motivated or influenced?

If the answer to any of those is yes then you need to have a long hard look at the way you view the world and how you come to your conclusions. 

I dislike the term white privilege because it’s very hard to convince a white lad dragged up by a single Junkie parent on a shitty estate that he has any kind of privilege. But it is a privilege to be able to walk down a street without people assuming you’re a wrong ‘un because of your skin colour. 

I would strongly recommend the book ‘why I no longer talk to white people about race.’ It opened my eyes and gave me a new perspective. It’s only a few quid on Kindle just ignore the foot notes; they’re mostly references. 

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30 minutes ago, The Lurker said:

Do you believe that the victims of grooming gangs were targeted because they were white?

That has seemingly been the case, yes.

30 minutes ago, The Lurker said:

Do you believe that because white people are sometimes the victims of violence at the hands of people of colour that violence against people of colour cannot be racially motivated? 

The point was the difference in reactions -

George Floyd - Tony Timpa - who died in similar ways - one gets worldwide protests and media attention  the other gets nothing.

Do you believe that violence against white people cannot be racially motivated?

30 minutes ago, The Lurker said:

Do you believe that because US police occasionally use excessive force on white people that not one single example of Black People being killed by US Police is racially motivated or influenced?

Do you believe that killing white people is ever racially motivated?  It's a lot more than "occasionally".

30 minutes ago, The Lurker said:

If the answer to any of those is yes then you need to have a long hard look at the way you view the world and how you come to your conclusions. 

I'll see the world the way I see it, I don't care if it hurts your feelings.

Edited by Lagman
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11 hours ago, Lagman said:

That has seemingly been the case, yes.

The point was the difference in reactions -

George Floyd - Tony Timpa - who died in similar ways - one gets worldwide protests and media attention  the other gets nothing.

Do you believe that violence against white people cannot be racially motivated?

Do you believe that killing white people is ever racially motivated?  It's a lot more than "occasionally".

I'll see the world the way I see it, I don't care if it hurts your feelings.

I'm sorry; I don't know how to do the separate quote thingy; I'll respond in order.

Race had nothing to do with it; the victims were vulnerable due to their family circumstances and socio-economic background; see 'The Prosecutor' by Nazir Afzal (he prosecuted the Rochdale grooming gang; (I haven't finished it yet) provides some interesting background and 'Prey' by Cassie Pike details the victims perspective of this type of crime. https://www.economist.com/britain/2018/10/27/is-grooming-children-for-sex-a-disproportionately-asian-crime this article (you'll have to register to read in full) is short but essentially the point is that Asian abuse gangs are more likely to be visible and easier to prosecute en-masse than white gangs or groups; the actual stats for the ethnicity (whilst unclear due to poor record keeping) are more in line with population demographics.

There are very, very few cases of death by excessive Police force in the USA where the victims are White People in comparison to the amount of Black People killed. Look at the reaction to the old bloke being pushed over in New York (could be wrong on location there) to see that. https://theweek.com/articles/918849/what-about-police-violence-against-white-people this article (no restrictions this time) delves into the details and explains the disparity between the ethnicity of victims of Police brutality in the US. What I take away from reading that is that it is every American citizen's interests to reduce Police violence; for those who can't be arsed clicking the link 33.5 people per 10 million were killed in 2019; the next closest rival is Canada at 9.8!

Of course violence against white people can be racially motivated but the BLM movement is specifically about the state (Police) killing it's own citizens. It is not about violence within the general population. I don't have to hand (OK, I admit it; I can't be bothered to look) stats for racially motivated violence but I would be willing to bet a pint of MPA that White men are by far the biggest perpetrators. 

Again; of course killing White people can be racially motivated but in the context of Police killings it is difficult to see that a White victim of a White Police Officer as being racially motivated; more a symptom of the casual use of lethal violence in American Police culture. I have tried to find stats on White civilians killed by Black Police Officers but that doesn't seem to be available. You may see that as a George Soros funded conspiracy; I see it as being such a statistically insignificant number that studies are impossible. I would recommend that you research the concept of shooting bias which explores the likelihood of being a victim of Police shooting based on ethnicity.

'I'll see the world the way I see it, I don't care if it hurts your feelings.'

I've quoted this one specifically because it's quite worrying really. I know I'm just some random anonymous bloke on the internet and not caring about me is fine but do you have this same attitude with people that you know in person? If so that is a very callous way of thinking and not one that I would have divined from your previous posting. The absolute best thing about having a mind is that it can be changed; that is  a sign of strength and not weakness.

I will repeat the assertions I've made in this and the other BLM thread. Dismissing the BLM movement as an over reaction or as being racist in itself is at best the lazy resort of people who simply do not want to question their own place and role in our world and at worst a symptom of racism. Read some books; read some articles; learn about the perspectives of people who are different from you.

I also repeat that I am a white middle aged bloke from Yorkshire; I never met a Black person until I joined the army at sixteen. I'm fairly sure that my attitude would be along the 'all lives matter' if I hadn't bothered to educate myself on this subject.

You really have nothing to loose by challenging your own beliefs; it can be quite liberating. 

I will now bow out (reserving the right to change my mind!) from this topic; I apologise if anyone feels as though I have attacked them personally; that has not been my intention; it simply frustrates me that so many people refuse to consider the possibility that their beliefs may be harmful. 

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I think that's where white privilege is a poor term.

It's describing the absence of barriers caused by race. But the absence of discrimination is not a privilege its a right. 

And just because someone isn't subject to barriers due to race doesn't mean there's not other barriers - poverty, gender, geography, class, disability - and many others. 

It seems where systemic child abuse has happened the victims have been poor with little family support and because of their youth their voices weren't heard. Then of course officialdom turns a blind eye out of fear of repercussions. The only difference between the Cyril Smith scandal and the Grooming scandal - in the same town, is that the reason for the fear which lead to official inaction  changed from fear of repercussions from the powerful to fear of repercussions of seeming racist. So whilst they should definitely look into this scandal and not shy away from the racial element it probably won't prevent the next scandal unless it tackles the other "un-privileges" that put youngsters at risk.

 

Edited by Declan
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7 minutes ago, Declan said:

I think that's where white privilege is a poor term.

It's describing the absence of barriers caused by race. But the absence of discrimination is not a privilege its a right. 

And just because someone isn't subject to barriers due to race doesn't mean there's not other barriers - poverty, gender, geography, class, disability - and many others. 

It seems where systemic child abuse has happened the victims have been poor with little family support and because of their youth their voices weren't heard. Then of course officialdom turns a blind eye out of fear of repercussions. The only difference between the Cyril Smith scandal and the Grooming scandal - in the same town, is that the reason for the fear of official inaction  changed from fear of repurcussions from the powerful to fear of repercussions of seeming racist. So whilst they should definitely look into this scandal and not shy away from the racial element it probably won't prevent the next scandal unless it tackles the other "un-privileges" that put youngsters at risk.

 

100% with you Declan.  Thank you, very eloquently put. 

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Not all US law enforcement agencies report their crime data to the FBI. The 2018 report (issued December 2019) says that the data they have put together only accounts for 43.7% of those agencies. I haven't look at it in detail as yet.

https://www.fbi.gov/news/pressrel/press-releases/fbi-releases-2018-nibrs-crime-data-as-transition-to-nibrs-2021-continues

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5 hours ago, The Lurker said:

I'm sorry; I don't know how to do the separate quote thingy; I'll respond in order.

Race had nothing to do with it; the victims were vulnerable due to their family circumstances and socio-economic background; see 'The Prosecutor' by Nazir Afzal (he prosecuted the Rochdale grooming gang; (I haven't finished it yet) provides some interesting background and 'Prey' by Cassie Pike details the victims perspective of this type of crime. https://www.economist.com/britain/2018/10/27/is-grooming-children-for-sex-a-disproportionately-asian-crime this article (you'll have to register to read in full) is short but essentially the point is that Asian abuse gangs are more likely to be visible and easier to prosecute en-masse than white gangs or groups; the actual stats for the ethnicity (whilst unclear due to poor record keeping) are more in line with population demographics.

There are very, very few cases of death by excessive Police force in the USA where the victims are White People in comparison to the amount of Black People killed. Look at the reaction to the old bloke being pushed over in New York (could be wrong on location there) to see that. https://theweek.com/articles/918849/what-about-police-violence-against-white-people this article (no restrictions this time) delves into the details and explains the disparity between the ethnicity of victims of Police brutality in the US. What I take away from reading that is that it is every American citizen's interests to reduce Police violence; for those who can't be arsed clicking the link 33.5 people per 10 million were killed in 2019; the next closest rival is Canada at 9.8!

Of course violence against white people can be racially motivated but the BLM movement is specifically about the state (Police) killing it's own citizens. It is not about violence within the general population. I don't have to hand (OK, I admit it; I can't be bothered to look) stats for racially motivated violence but I would be willing to bet a pint of MPA that White men are by far the biggest perpetrators. 

Again; of course killing White people can be racially motivated but in the context of Police killings it is difficult to see that a White victim of a White Police Officer as being racially motivated; more a symptom of the casual use of lethal violence in American Police culture. I have tried to find stats on White civilians killed by Black Police Officers but that doesn't seem to be available. You may see that as a George Soros funded conspiracy; I see it as being such a statistically insignificant number that studies are impossible. I would recommend that you research the concept of shooting bias which explores the likelihood of being a victim of Police shooting based on ethnicity.

'I'll see the world the way I see it, I don't care if it hurts your feelings.'

I've quoted this one specifically because it's quite worrying really. I know I'm just some random anonymous bloke on the internet and not caring about me is fine but do you have this same attitude with people that you know in person? If so that is a very callous way of thinking and not one that I would have divined from your previous posting. The absolute best thing about having a mind is that it can be changed; that is  a sign of strength and not weakness.

I will repeat the assertions I've made in this and the other BLM thread. Dismissing the BLM movement as an over reaction or as being racist in itself is at best the lazy resort of people who simply do not want to question their own place and role in our world and at worst a symptom of racism. Read some books; read some articles; learn about the perspectives of people who are different from you.

I also repeat that I am a white middle aged bloke from Yorkshire; I never met a Black person until I joined the army at sixteen. I'm fairly sure that my attitude would be along the 'all lives matter' if I hadn't bothered to educate myself on this subject.

You really have nothing to loose by challenging your own beliefs; it can be quite liberating. 

I will now bow out (reserving the right to change my mind!) from this topic; I apologise if anyone feels as though I have attacked them personally; that has not been my intention; it simply frustrates me that so many people refuse to consider the possibility that their beliefs may be harmful. 

That's what I said pages and pages back. The real issue is Police brutality (in USA). 

And I also mentioned that the US Justice Department are breaching US laws. No data has been compiled by them since the Act required them to do so in 2013 (may be earlier, I think).

ETA: BLM should perhaps use what legislation there is to force the US Government to provide the data so that they can all see the real picture.

Edited by Andy Onchan
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On 6/11/2020 at 12:36 AM, HeliX said:

It's quite interesting how some people find it divisive while others don't. But BLM isn't suggesting that "All lives matter" isn't true. But people responding to the comment "black lives matter" with "all lives matter" does seem like they're suggesting we don't need to have a particular focus on emphasising that black lives matter in the current climate. I think we do, and I think the complete disregard the US police have been documented showing towards whether a black person lives or dies multiple times recently is ample evidence of this. George Floyd isn't the first time US police have been filmed choking a black person to death, and not seeming particularly perturbed when they can't find a pulse.

The reason "all lives matter" isn't a good counter-argument to "black lives matter" is that it shouldn't need a counter argument to begin with. If someone told me "white lives matter", I wouldn't feel the need to offer rebuttal or alteration. If they put the word "Only" at the start I would object, but otherwise I don't see the problem - it's not exclusionary.

OK let’s say an organization BMLM (Black Male Lives Matter) was established as a sub set of BLM (Black Lives Matter)  in the same way that BLM is a subset of ALM (All Lives Matter). How would black women feel about this  (BMLM)? 
It is also not exclusionary in the same way that BLM is not exclusionary with ALM (unless you put the word “Only” at the start)

 

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3 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said:

OK let’s say an organization BMLM (Black Male Lives Matter) was established as a sub set of BLM (Black Lives Matter)  in the same way that BLM is a subset of ALM (All Lives Matter). How would black women feel about this  (BMLM)? 
It is also not exclusionary in the same way that BLM is not exclusionary with ALM (unless you put the word “Only” at the start)

 

You'd have to ask some. It wouldn't bother me, but I'm not a black woman.

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