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5 minutes ago, Declan said:

 

Party politics isn't a bureaucracy (at least not one that impacts the government process), it means that candidates have gone through some sort of pre-selection process which should filter some incompetents out. It means that ordinary people can join the parties and and have an input into their manifestos, so they are more than an series of vague asperations. The parties generate policy ideas which gain support through the democratic processes. It also means a voter can vote for or against a proposed programme for government. We can vote for or against the government, and can hold the government to account. We know when we cast our ballot who our MHK will support to be Chief Minister. At the moment we only find out who the Chief Minister candidates are after the election.

Our votes count for nothing, we don't chose the government, we don't get to vote for a political direction for the island all we get to do is vote for the egotist with the nicest sounding aspirations. It's like choosing Miss World on who's the most convincing in their desire for world peace and end to animal cruelty.

You ask "And is that fact or your perception?" in response to "So we don't have collective responsibility we've collective avoidance of responsibility." I'd say it's a fact, there's hundreds of examples, but a current one from your neck of the woods. Lots of Ramsey folk are pissed off about the roadworks, bus lane etc on the way into Douglas. Dr Allison is part of COMIN, seems to be a reasonable guy and made a decent start at education but he's sitting quietly by when the traffic into Douglas backs up. Or is he? Maybe he's banging the table and screaming about it, but we'll never know. Now lets say Joe Ramsey is so livid about this he wants to punish the politicians responsible - does he vote for or against Dr Allison?

Same goes for Health Care, Crime or whatever your concerns unless your MHK is the Chief Minister or the minister of the department concerned you can't hold them to account. In fact - the last Chief Minister to stand for re-election to the Keys was Gelling in 2001 (and was unopposed and stood down a few months later), the ONLY Chief Minister to defend a Keys constituency and then carry on as Chief Minister is Walker back in 1991. I think a fundamental element of democracy is the public get the chance to say "you've done a good job carry on" and that's happened ONCE and then only one constituency was asked.

"Is that the system or the politicians though?" It's the system, but the politicians refuse to fix it. They could fix it tomorrow by forming political parties, but they hide behind the facade of independence.

It is not necessary for existing politicians to form parties. It is open to any one of us to advertise for like-minded individuals and form a national political party. Far easier to do here than in a larger jurisdiction. We even have a few parties already in existence. You only need elect 13 Keys on a popular mandate to take control, after all. The fact that it hasn't happened much, or when it has it's been greeted largely with apathy, surely tells us that there is no appetite for it apart from among a few political anoraks. It surely is not for government to foist such a system on an unenthusiastic population.

As for the Chief Minister, well it isn't a presidential system. The CM has limited powers, so it doesn't seem to me to be a major issue as to whether he personally, and he alone, should have a national or any specific mandate directly from the electorate. He is elected by the other representatives.

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9 minutes ago, woolley said:

It is not necessary for existing politicians to form parties. It is open to any one of us to advertise for like-minded individuals and form a national political party. Far easier to do here than in a larger jurisdiction. We even have a few parties already in existence. You only need elect 13 Keys on a popular mandate to take control, after all. The fact that it hasn't happened much, or when it has it's been greeted largely with apathy, surely tells us that there is no appetite for it apart from among a few political anoraks. It surely is not for government to foist such a system on an unenthusiastic population.

As for the Chief Minister, well it isn't a presidential system. The CM has limited powers, so it doesn't seem to me to be a major issue as to whether he personally, and he alone, should have a national or any specific mandate directly from the electorate. He is elected by the other representatives.

The CM may have limited powers but has power to appoint ministers so if you don’t agree with him you’re out! Chris Thomas a good example, Harmer & cregeen completely useless but just get moved sideways 

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7 minutes ago, woolley said:

It is not necessary for existing politicians to form parties.

But their failure to do so makes them cowards who are afraid to face the electorate honestly.

It would be dead easy for Quayle or his designated successor to form the COMIN party - call it the Manx Unity Party or something and stand in the next election. I'm sure they could even find at least one candidate for Douglas South (Christian is practically running on that ticket already.) They choose not to because the fuzzy fudge of a system they've got now makes it so much easier to avoid responsibility.

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18 minutes ago, woolley said:

 

As for the Chief Minister, well it isn't a presidential system. The CM has limited powers, so it doesn't seem to me to be a major issue as to whether he personally, and he alone, should have a national or any specific mandate directly from the electorate. He is elected by the other representatives.

It is a major issue - if you don't have party politics. I can't vote for or against the government in the country I live in.

Now you are right, they could fix that by having a directly elected CM by the whole island, a president in effect. But they choose not to, they prefer a system that requires political parties to function, but the governing political party is only formed after the election.

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28 minutes ago, Declan said:

It is a major issue - if you don't have party politics. I can't vote for or against the government in the country I live in.

I suppose the theory is that some degree of accountability of the executive is provided by the votes cast by each MHK.  That is to say, each area is assumed to elect someone who reflects the predominant values and disposition of that area, who then exercises a vote for or against the chief minister after the general election.  It's a bit of a fudge, I know, but I think that's the thinking behind the current system.

That said, I'm not sure party politics is necessarily a remedy for the situation you describe.  If no parties stand in your area, or if only small parties do, you still have the same problem as before. Alternatively, if party politics leads to a strong Douglas-centric bias in Manx politics, you may find that, while you can vote for or against the government, your vote will mean very little indeed. A similar situation is this likely to arise with all-Island elections for a presidential chief minister.

Not that such rambling is really an argument for or against any one system. It just strikes me that each system has flaws, often serious, sometimes subtle, so perhaps we should be thinking as much in terms of what we're willing to sacrifice as of what we want. 

 

Edited by VinnieK
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2 hours ago, Rhumsaa said:

 

 

I was reply to a comment that said;

which means your replies make no sense as you're basically arguing both sides.

You can't argue against an independent making a difference by saying if they become CoMin they can't provide scrutiny, because then they are directing policy and can absolutely make a difference, which again backs up my original point

I am not discussing how you provide scrutiny, I am discussing how you can achieve something worthwhile. 

The flow of a thread is so important, you can't just weigh in randomly to replies and take things out of context.

Can do whatever you like in MF yessir. As long as the mods don’t mind

your context and mine are different doesn’t mean mine is wrong. At worst ill-described. 
in my world politicians don’t make a shit of difference. You think different so be it

 

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4 minutes ago, english zloty said:

Can do whatever you like in MF yessir. As long as the mods don’t mind

your context and mine are different doesn’t mean mine is wrong. At worst ill-described. 
in my world politicians don’t make a shit of difference. You think different so be it

 

You can do it but it's pointless.

It's like me replying to a debate about Michael Phelps' status as whether he's the greatest swimmer of all time and then you disagreeing with me by saying he's shit on a bicycle

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51 minutes ago, Declan said:

It is a major issue - if you don't have party politics. I can't vote for or against the government in the country I live in.

Now you are right, they could fix that by having a directly elected CM by the whole island, a president in effect. But they choose not to, they prefer a system that requires political parties to function, but the governing political party is only formed after the election.

What about my main point that there is nothing to stop like-minded individuals forming a party, putting forward a manifesto and standing for election on a platform of overthrowing the current system and installing one based on party politics? My suspicion is that the electorate would be underwhelmed and it would get nowhere. There is the opportunity for someone to stand up and prove me wrong.

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8 minutes ago, woolley said:

What about my main point that there is nothing to stop like-minded individuals forming a party, putting forward a manifesto and standing for election on a platform of overthrowing the current system and installing one based on party politics? My suspicion is that the electorate would be underwhelmed and it would get nowhere. There is the opportunity for someone to stand up and prove me wrong.

Hey, let's think of a zippy, no nonsense, catchy, meaningless soundbite on which to build their manifesto.

How about "TAKE BACK CONTROL!"

Or is that just a little bit hackneyed....?

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31 minutes ago, woolley said:

What about my main point that there is nothing to stop like-minded individuals forming a party, putting forward a manifesto and standing for election on a platform of overthrowing the current system and installing one based on party politics? My suspicion is that the electorate would be underwhelmed and it would get nowhere. There is the opportunity for someone to stand up and prove me wrong.

You are probably right, a new party could be set up. But it's an uphill battle because there already IS a very powerful party - one that's held power for centuries, a secret, ad hoc party that only exists between elections, the Party of Manx Unity formed by so-called Independents after each election. That Party doesn't want to stand on it's record in government or form the opposition or be accountable to the electorate for it's actions so it dissolves every election and they all stand as proud independents. Only to reform with most of the old faces immediately afterwards.

Edited by Declan
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1 hour ago, woolley said:

What about my main point that there is nothing to stop like-minded individuals forming a party, putting forward a manifesto and standing for election on a platform of overthrowing the current system and installing one based on party politics? My suspicion is that the electorate would be underwhelmed and it would get nowhere. There is the opportunity for someone to stand up and prove me wrong.


That would be radical, & the Manx electorate doesn't like radical

Would a Manx party advocating gradual, moderate but progressive climate friendly change - let's call it the MLP - fair better in the polls?

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