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11 hours ago, thesultanofsheight said:

Setting up LV I actually think was a mistake. He was best as an independent and he should have encouraged similarly minded independents (if they existed) to form an alliance rather than establish the LV experiment. 

Liberal Vannin often strikes me (perhaps unfairly) as being a bit neither fish nor fowl with regards to its status as a political party. 

On the one hand it certainly looks a like a political party, in that it has something resembling a party structure with members, a chairman, a leader, etc. On the other it's actually pretty difficult to find details of anything like overall policy objectives—the closest their website has to a statement of these is a (very) broad definition of the word 'liberal'*, and all I could find elsewhere was a copy of their 2011 national manifesto.

The Manx Labour Party is a bit better in that they at least publish a copy of their constitution, but, ironically, the one party that goes the furthest in openly stating a detailed set of objectives is the one which doesn't even participate in elections: Mec Vannin.

*A further (small) gripe with Liberal Vannin is that their website goes on to define 'Vannin' as "Vannin is our home on the Isle of Man".  If you want to use the Manx, the Isle of Man is Mannin, or Ellan Vannin; 'Vannin' is just a word that, when combined with another, means "of the Isle of Man"

 

Edited by VinnieK
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11 hours ago, dilligaf said:

Don’t agree on that angle. People voted for Peter. Not some half hatched labour rubbish. You know that..Labour, ? What exactly did they stand for or even achieve ? One word reply, Nothing.

I think you are wrong about how things were in 1985. Labour had party machines, constituency parties, and were good at canvassing and getting voters out on the day.

I was deputy returning officer in Middle when Peter was elected. And then deputy and later returning officer, in North Douglas. The labour ticket gave candidates in their heartland constituencies, Middle, Douglas North and South, Rushen, up to the late 80’s, and before that Garff and Peel, a 500 vote edge.

As for the “one word” ameliorated. Labour, as Chairs or members of Boards of Tynwald, or Ministers or political members of Departments ameliorated the right wing reactionary policies that might otherwise have prevailed.

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On 7/24/2020 at 6:45 PM, Declan said:

You are probably right, a new party could be set up. But it's an uphill battle because there already IS a very powerful party - one that's held power for centuries, a secret, ad hoc party that only exists between elections, the Party of Manx Unity formed by so-called Independents after each election. That Party doesn't want to stand on it's record in government or form the opposition or be accountable to the electorate for it's actions so it dissolves every election and they all stand as proud independents. Only to reform with most of the old faces immediately afterwards.

That is the genius of the current format. A system which produces consistent small c conservative governance because that is what a collective of independents is predisposed to do, but which cannot be easily challenged. You couldn’t design a better system if that’s the outcome you wanted. 

The problems with ‘a party’ response to this mean it can never be overcome that way, because the independents can always shape shift prior to election.  

 

 

Edited by James Hampton
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And maybe we should assume the majority of the population now want conservative governance, the overall demographic profile might be that way inclined now? Very different from 30-60 years ago. 

The crux is what happens to the services we can assume those same people want. You can’t have both, but as Declan has pointed out the beauty of the current system is the independents can just shrug and pretend it’s not their fault. 

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10 minutes ago, James Hampton said:

That is the genius of the current format. A system which produces consistent small c conservative governance because that is what a collective of independents is predisposed to do, but which cannot be easily challenged. You couldn’t design a better system if that’s the outcome you wanted. 

The problems with ‘a party’ response to this mean it can never be overcome that way, because the independents can always shape shift prior to election.  

 

 

My response to Declan was that if people actually wanted party politics here and the electorate wanted to vote for that, it would be the easiest thing to set up. My reading is that people here look at the confrontational politics elsewhere and simply want no part of a system like that. 

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12 minutes ago, woolley said:

My response to Declan was that if people actually wanted party politics here and the electorate wanted to vote for that, it would be the easiest thing to set up. My reading is that people here look at the confrontational politics elsewhere and simply want no part of a system like that. 

I’m not sure it’s an aversion to parties full stop, I would guess more that no party currently exists which offers the core of policies the majority would vote for (because they don’t have to for the reasons already discussed). 

At the same time I would guess there is a very low level of satisfaction with the current system (I think the Gov own data showed that didn’t it?) which would go against the ‘ain’t broke’ theory. 

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If the Ramsey chappie, LaurieHooper, the only remaining LV MHK left has any sense he will go as an independent next year.  Kate killed off LibVan ,   a few people have got in on a LibVan ticket but did not like having adhere to Kate’s rules and left, they got stick at the time but they did the right thing not having to toe Kate’s line helped them to have a free vote and use it to benefit their constituents.

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5 minutes ago, woolley said:

But nothing to stop any group forming a party if they are convinced of this.  

No not at all, but the point is why would they? If you are happy with the status quo you don’t need to, if you’re not happy the evidence suggests forming a party isn’t going to be successful in changing anything. 

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8 minutes ago, hissingsid said:

If the Ramsey chappie, LaurieHooper, the only remaining LV MHK left has any sense he will go as an independent next year.  Kate killed off LibVan ,   a few people have got in on a LibVan ticket but did not like having adhere to Kate’s rules and left, they got stick at the time but they did the right thing not having to toe Kate’s line helped them to have a free vote and use it to benefit their constituents.

Josem, running in south Douglas is Lib Van chairman.

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9 minutes ago, hissingsid said:

If the Ramsey chappie, LaurieHooper, the only remaining LV MHK left has any sense he will go as an independent next year.  

Why? Because of the usual looking out for number one and what's in it for me? Give the lad his due he has shown he has integrity. There's about a dozen (including Douglas Corporation) who were otherwise unelectable but who got in on the LibVan ticket, and did their own thing once the buffets etc started appearing.

I would expect Josem to do well at the South Douglas by-election.Maybe wait until after then to see the future of LibVan.

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46 minutes ago, woolley said:

My response to Declan was that if people actually wanted party politics here and the electorate wanted to vote for that, it would be the easiest thing to set up. My reading is that people here look at the confrontational politics elsewhere and simply want no part of a system like that. 

You may well be right, but I'd say that we haven't actually had enough recent experience with proper party politics to judge the disposition of Island residents.

The Manx Labour Party was pretty much moribund during the last 20 years or so, fielding only two candidates in 2001, leaving Liberal Vannin (founded in 2006) as the only party gunning for a significant number of seats.  That gives us only three general elections' with such a party in existence.  Moreover, for at least the first of those elections, enthusiasm was fairly muted since Liberal Vannin was an unknown quantity and I think a fair few people regarded it more as the 'Peter Karran Party'.

Also, our parties don't seem to operate in the same way as most.  As Rhumsaa and I were saying, you'd expect a party to be aggressively targeting local elections, ideally seeking to control at least a few, in an attempt to build up its credibility and visibility and gain a pool of local authority politicians who could then stand in the general elections. For whatever reason, that doesn't happen here.  Instead, it seems like momentum stops dead between elections, and each general election brings a roster of largely new and unknown candidates—it's a bit like LV as a party has to start from scratch with each general election. 

In short, though we have parties, I'd say we don't yet seem to have much in the way of party politics to judge whether the Island really wants it or not.

 

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46 minutes ago, James Hampton said:

No not at all, but the point is why would they? If you are happy with the status quo you don’t need to, if you’re not happy the evidence suggests forming a party isn’t going to be successful in changing anything. 

But if you're not happy then the only way forward is to do something about it. If there is such enthusiasm for party politics here, then how hard can it be to find 24 like-minded individuals and get at least 13 of them elected to take power? The fact that it doesn't happen means that there are not enough people who favour this system to give it a go, or those so inclined believe that the majority disagree with them. That's democracy.

 

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