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22 minutes ago, VinnieK said:

You may well be right, but I'd say that we haven't actually had enough recent experience with proper party politics to judge the disposition of Island residents.

In short, though we have parties, I'd say we don't yet seem to have much in the way of party politics to judge whether the Island really wants it or not.

But politics isn't a carnival that passes your door for you to watch. It is something that you get involved in and change if you feel strongly enough. As I said above, it isn't rocket science. 13 like-minded people elected. That's all you need. I think party politics is a waste of energy and resources in a small jurisdiction to be perfectly honest, and the Island is very wise to steer clear. I believe that the Island has made this judgment and that's why it doesn't happen.

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15 hours ago, John Wright said:

That certainly wasn’t true when he was first elected, on the Labour ticket. He wouldn’t have got in without.

Middle, as it was then, was a labour stronghold, had been for 60+ years.

PK - according to Wikipedia - was only a representative for Middle for one year

I'd hesitate to say it was a Labour stronghold

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_(sheading)

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33 minutes ago, Donald Trumps said:

PK - according to Wikipedia - was only a representative for Middle for one year

I'd hesitate to say it was a Labour stronghold

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_(sheading)

That’s because Middle had its name changed to Onchan in 1986. Santon, which had been part of Middle Constituency from 1866, was hived off to join Malew, which had been hived off from Rushen.

MLP had between 5 & 7 MHK’s between WW1 and 1946. Including continually in Onchan. It returned 2 in 1946, and in 1948 JACK Nivison won in Onchan.

I’ve not got time to go through each election result and identify the Labour members. They were back up to 5 in the 1960’s and 4 in the 1970’s plus had MLC’s so made up between 20% to 25% of Tynwald for most of the period from 1925 to 1980. That’s hardly surprising in old Middle. The MLP grew out of the Agricultural Workers Party. Constituencies like Rushen, Garff and Middle had large rural populations working the land, and Rushen and Middle had large social housing estates built between 1945 and 1975.

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1 hour ago, woolley said:

But if you're not happy then the only way forward is to do something about it. If there is such enthusiasm for party politics here, then how hard can it be to find 24 like-minded individuals and get at least 13 of them elected to take power? The fact that it doesn't happen means that there are not enough people who favour this system to give it a go, or those so inclined believe that the majority disagree with them. That's democracy.

 

I agree that the only way forward is to do something about it. I disagree that party politics is the solution. I don’t think people are opposed to the idea of parties per se. I think it hasn’t taken hold here because one side of the political spectrum has had the great fortune (I don't think it was established this way by design) of inheriting a system which means they don’t have to form a party in order to maintain a form of governance which at least in part suits the current majority. So if you like the way things are (more or less, aside from the irony of moaning about reduced services) you don’t have to do anything. 

The party system in the UK is maintained purely due to the grip the structures have over power - basically if you don’t pick a party you have virtually no chance of getting elected, and absolutely no chance of changing anything. The party structure then wields this power in order to maintain it. On the IOM the parties don’t have that power, which is why we see so many using the party ticket purely as a stepping stone. IOM politicians can drop their party with virtually no consequences. That’s not true in the UK. The system isn’t maintained that way in the UK because people like it, it’s maintained because it suits those really ‘in power’ behind those structures. 

Your imaginary scenario of a group of people who agree forming a party doesn’t exist in the UK, and it cannot emerge here because the parties don’t have the power to enforce agreement and compliance. 

 

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21 minutes ago, Knoxxy said:

The thought of Pamela Malarkey makes me cringe.

She would be a bigger waste of space that Mr Malarkey and that takes some doing.

She must be missing his pay cheque.

Will she continue to get her MHK  widows pension,  as well as an MHK salary,  if she’s elected?

The last time I can think of a widow of an a MHK being elected in her late husbands place was before the Tynwald Pension Scheme existed

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19 minutes ago, John Wright said:

That’s because Middle had its name changed to Onchan in 1986. Santon, which had been part of Middle Constituency from 1866, was hived off to join Malew, which had been hived off from Rushen.

MLP had between 5 & 7 MHK’s between WW1 and 1946. Including continually in Onchan. It returned 2 in 1946, and in 1948 JACK Nivison won in Onchan.

I’ve not got time to go through each election result and identify the Labour members. They were back up to 5 in the 1960’s and 4 in the 1970’s plus had MLC’s so made up between 20% to 25% of Tynwald for most of the period from 1925 to 1980. That’s hardly surprising in old Middle. The MLP grew out of the Agricultural Workers Party. Constituencies like Rushen, Garff and Middle had large rural populations working the land, and Rushen and Middle had large social housing estates built between 1945 and 1975.

All these MLP MHKs were representing Middle constituency?

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2 hours ago, VinnieK said:

Also, our parties don't seem to operate in the same way as most.  As Rhumsaa and I were saying, you'd expect a party to be aggressively targeting local elections, ideally seeking to control at least a few, in an attempt to build up its credibility and visibility and gain a pool of local authority politicians who could then stand in the general elections. For whatever reason, that doesn't happen here.  Instead, it seems like momentum stops dead between elections, and each general election brings a roster of largely new and unknown candidates—it's a bit like LV as a party has to start from scratch with each general election. 

I've never understood this either.  Even the old Manx Labour Party, which was as near as there has ever been to a 'proper' political party, usually only put up one candidate in multi-member seats, despite it actually being easier to get people elected if they did.  It seems that even within Parties people think that only they should be allowed to represent the area.  It's all about individual egos banding together rather than people collectively trying to advance particular policies or viewpoints.  Hence the lack of interest in political activity between elections or in local politics.

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21 minutes ago, Donald Trumps said:

Which ones were representing Middle, a Labour stronghold?

Off the top of my head, post WW2, JACK Nivison, Ted Ransom, Peter Karran, ad there’s one whose name escapes me. 4 over 40 years.

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54 minutes ago, James Hampton said:

Your imaginary scenario of a group of people who agree forming a party doesn’t exist in the UK, and it cannot emerge here because the parties don’t have the power to enforce agreement and compliance.

People have regularly formed parties in the UK, but the FPTP system means it is really hard to translate support into seats, UKIP and the Brexit Party being recent examples, so then they lose their initial momentum. If you can reach a tipping point though, it works heavily in your favour, as with the SNP. Looking at recent Scottish representation in Westminster, one could be forgiven for thinking that Scotland was overwhelmingly behind the SNP and its separatist pro-EU agenda, yet over a million Scots voted Leave in the Brexit referendum in 2016 and less than a million voted for the SNP in the general election the following year. They did put on 20% more in 2019.

I see no difference here regarding agreement and compliance to what happens in the UK. There are plenty of instances there of people crossing the floor and joining a different party and whole breakaway groups like the "gang of four" who formed the SDP in the 80s and more recently the Soubry/Umunnah crew that formed Change. So there really isn't any power to enforce agreement and compliance in the UK either.

To me, it seems that if there is such a groundswell of Manx public opinion that is sick to the back teeth of the way our politics operates, there should be very little difficulty in gathering a group of say 20 people who could formulate and articulate a way forward that could emerge from an election with at least the 13 seats needed for a majority. Far easier and less expensive to mount such a challenge for power here than in the UK, where you need to organise many hundreds across a huge country to even have a crack at it. The fact that it doesn't happen says to me that it isn't wanted by enough people here. Quite right too, in my view.

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