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Teacher’s pay dispute


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Just now, dilligaf said:

How do those % work then ? If 94% voted for action short of a strike, how did 85% vote to strike? 
Is it just me being stupid ? 
Is a walkout not a strike ?

Action short of strike = not doing extracurricular stuff, some meetings, lunchtime clubs etc.

Strike = not going to work.

 

It's possible to vote for both, but some teachers that voted for action short of strike did not vote to strike.

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1 hour ago, x-in-man said:

Most of them have spent no time out of an educational environment, left school, went to uni to study History and Theory of Art, Bar flies or sociology, then off to teacher training, then back to school.  No idea or experience of the real world.  

True. I remember my old fella explaining to me when I was at school and having difficulty with one teacher who was basically being a total twat that it’s only when you leave school that you‘ll realize what complete fucking idiots most teachers are in real life situations. And he was completely right. I’ve stitched up loads of them over the years when it comes to buying and selling stuff as most don’t have a clue. 

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The fact is, that despite teaching in general being a demanding career, teachers here have it easy with regards 100% of the children being able to speak/read English, governors aren’t in charge of the schools and their budgets, good sized classes with high teacher to child ratio, OFSTED and the associated pressure and stress does not exist here...the list goes on. Yet, here, as HeliX states, teachers want improved conditions as well as an even bigger pay rise. 

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1 hour ago, manxst said:

The fact is, that despite teaching in general being a demanding career, teachers here have it easy with regards 100% of the children being able to speak/read English, governors aren’t in charge of the schools and their budgets, good sized classes with high teacher to child ratio, OFSTED and the associated pressure and stress does not exist here...the list goes on. Yet, here, as HeliX states, teachers want improved conditions as well as an even bigger pay rise. 

Wrong in almost every respect. Substantial numbers of children have English as a second language, and many arrive with little or no English. High teacher to child ratios are a thing of the past in many instances, except in the DESCs fantasy figures, schools have to manage finances with none of the financial certainty of rolling budgets as in England, teachers would prefer OFSTED to the ridiculous interference from the 'advisors' and the associated paperwork and moving goalposts which cause greater stress, there are no pupil referral units for the worst behaved. There is a recruitment crisis throughout the British Isles, but it's worse here. If nothing changes there will be low calibre appointments, unqualified staff teaching, subjects dropped, and a rapid drop in standards. It's not just pay and conditions that needs sorting - the whole DESC needs changing to make it fit for its purpose. Do that, sort the pay and pensions situation, set up a shared equity scheme so new teachers can be housed, and bring back real independent scrutiny through an elected board or elected governors to hold schools and the DESC to account, and we could really have a system to be proud of.

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14 minutes ago, manxman34 said:

Wrong in almost every respect. Substantial numbers of children have English as a second language, and many arrive with little or no English. High teacher to child ratios are a thing of the past in many instances, except in the DESCs fantasy figures, schools have to manage finances with none of the financial certainty of rolling budgets as in England, teachers would prefer OFSTED to the ridiculous interference from the 'advisors' and the associated paperwork and moving goalposts which cause greater stress, there are no pupil referral units for the worst behaved. There is a recruitment crisis throughout the British Isles, but it's worse here. If nothing changes there will be low calibre appointments, unqualified staff teaching, subjects dropped, and a rapid drop in standards. It's not just pay and conditions that needs sorting - the whole DESC needs changing to make it fit for its purpose. Do that, sort the pay and pensions situation, set up a shared equity scheme so new teachers can be housed, and bring back real independent scrutiny through an elected board or elected governors to hold schools and the DESC to account, and we could really have a system to be proud of.

Not at my child’s school. The class is 100% white, all speak English and have done before starting school. The class size is around 20, and there is a teacher and 2 or 3 teaching assistants for that number. Compare this to the schools both my parents were in charge of in the U.K. 5% were white, and the majority of the 95% non white children did not speak English at ALL - a mix of Gujarati, Urdu, Farsi etc. Class size was around 40 with one teacher and occasionally an assistant. The Isle of Man is nothing like that, as you well know. 

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34 minutes ago, manxst said:

Not at my child’s school. The class is 100% white, all speak English and have done before starting school. The class size is around 20, and there is a teacher and 2 or 3 teaching assistants for that number. Compare this to the schools both my parents were in charge of in the U.K. 5% were white, and the majority of the 95% non white children did not speak English at ALL - a mix of Gujarati, Urdu, Farsi etc. Class size was around 40 with one teacher and occasionally an assistant. The Isle of Man is nothing like that, as you well know. 

But schools on the Island vary in the same way as schools in the UK do.  Just as there will be many in the UK where 100% will have English as their first language, there are schools in Douglas where many (though not 95%) will not be native speakers.  We know this from a Tynwald Question in November 2018 which gave the percentages for each school that had English as an additional language.  Overall the figure was 6.7% for Primary Schools and 6.2% for Secondary, but this varied from 0% for Ballaugh and Andreas to 28% for Henry Bloom Noble and 23% for St Mary's.

Now some of these students may have been perfectly bilingual and needed no extra help, but other may only recently be arrived on the Island and need a lot.

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13 minutes ago, Roger Mexico said:

But schools on the Island vary in the same way as schools in the UK do.  Just as there will be many in the UK where 100% will have English as their first language, there are schools in Douglas where many (though not 95%) will not be native speakers.  We know this from a Tynwald Question in November 2018 which gave the percentages for each school that had English as an additional language.  Overall the figure was 6.7% for Primary Schools and 6.2% for Secondary, but this varied from 0% for Ballaugh and Andreas to 28% for Henry Bloom Noble and 23% for St Mary's.

Now some of these students may have been perfectly bilingual and needed no extra help, but other may only recently be arrived on the Island and need a lot.

Absolutely, and I appreciate that the Island now has a significant population of ethnicities. But it is still some way from causing the difficulties for teachers that it does in the U.K. I’d hazard a guess that to have two or more children starting school in the same class who can’t speak English would be practically unheard of here. 

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6 minutes ago, manxst said:

Absolutely, and I appreciate that the Island now has a significant population of ethnicities. But it is still some way from causing the difficulties for teachers that it does in the U.K. I’d hazard a guess that to have two or more children starting school in the same class who can’t speak English would be practically unheard of here. 

Should salaries for public service workers be set based on how difficult their job is compared to UK counterparts, or how expensive it is to live here compared to the UK?

If the former, how do you balance how much extra effort is worth how much cost of living offset?

I'd suggest the difference in difficulty between teaching here and teaching in the UK is smaller than the difference in cost of living.

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13 minutes ago, manxst said:

Absolutely, and I appreciate that the Island now has a significant population of ethnicities. But it is still some way from causing the difficulties for teachers that it does in the U.K. I’d hazard a guess that to have two or more children starting school in the same class who can’t speak English would be practically unheard of here. 

Well it can't be unheard of if there are four schools in Douglas with over 10% non-native speakers.  It must be fairly common particularly in reception classes[1].  And it's a fairly limited problem in a lot of the UK as well.  Just because some teachers in the Island have it easier than some in the UK, it doesn't apply to every teacher on the Island versus every one in the UK.

 

[1]  Cregeen's reply said there was assessment of the level of skills the children had and explained the scale, but then didn't give any figures, which is fairly typical of DESC.  The people in charge of education aren't much good at explaining things usefully.

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7 minutes ago, Roger Mexico said:

 

[1]  Cregeen's reply said there was assessment of the level of skills the children had and explained they were higher than his own

 

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4 minutes ago, TheTeapot said:
  11 minutes ago, Roger Mexico said:

[1]  Cregeen's reply said there was assessment of the level of skills the children had and explained they were higher than his own

That's unfair.  Cregeen's English skills are higher than those of a five year-old who doesn't speak any English.  Just about.

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So Helix you are discounting the 200+ who have not joined a union it is not erroneous to suspect they would not support a strike.   The whole scenario is pure Michael Mouse , why on earth do they have five unions, one being recently formed. I hope Dr Allinson tells them to fly away the treasury minister has told them as much, greedy and stupid and they are teaching are children, they disgust me.   Teaching used to be a vocation, sure they should get a decent wage but lots do it because they think it is an easy ride with loads of holidays and when they find it is not they are unhappy.   I had some crap teachers when I was at school but only realised it a lot later on in life they would not have survived in any other career.

 

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19 minutes ago, hissingsid said:

So Helix you are discounting the 200+ who have not joined a union it is not erroneous to suspect they would not support a strike.   The whole scenario is pure Michael Mouse , why on earth do they have five unions, one being recently formed. I hope Dr Allinson tells them to fly away the treasury minister has told them as much, greedy and stupid and they are teaching are children, they disgust me.   Teaching used to be a vocation, sure they should get a decent wage but lots do it because they think it is an easy ride with loads of holidays and when they find it is not they are unhappy.   I had some crap teachers when I was at school but only realised it a lot later on in life they would not have survived in any other career.

 

Our.

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11 minutes ago, hissingsid said:

So Helix you are discounting the 200+ who have not joined a union it is not erroneous to suspect they would not support a strike.   The whole scenario is pure Michael Mouse , why on earth do they have five unions, one being recently formed. I hope Dr Allinson tells them to fly away the treasury minister has told them as much, greedy and stupid and they are teaching are children, they disgust me.   Teaching used to be a vocation, sure they should get a decent wage but lots do it because they think it is an easy ride with loads of holidays and when they find it is not they are unhappy.   I had some crap teachers when I was at school but only realised it a lot later on in life they would not have survived in any other career.

 

Why isn't it erroneous to make complete guesses as to what they'd do? But no, I wasn't discounting them. If all the unions poll similar figures, the majority of teachers on the island will support action short of strike, and likely including strike.

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