Teacher’s pay dispute

[Feelslike 84]

2 hours ago, P.K. said:

What part of "anecdotal bollox is not real data" is it that you find so difficult to understand?

So, hardly surprisingly, no real data on hours worked by teachers on the island.

No data = no argument.

If you can't put a £number against an activity then, very obviously, any unmeasured activity is completely worthless. Value = zero.

This is absolutely basic stuff.

When they decide to cease all activities outside of their contracted hours no-one will be bothered then, will they? In which case, let them carry on not doing it, stop all clubs and after school activities and whatever else they say they do at their own cost. 

If it is an issue and the kids and parents don't like it, then the DOE can pay for some other teachers or carers or assistants to come in an cover those activities outside of normal teacher contracted hours. What, there's a shortage of those people? Well who's going to do it then? Oh, the teachers - good idea! Any chance of paying them for it?

I hope they are keeping a record of the hours they each do outside of normal contracted hours. Either pay them more, or employ someone else to pick up the extra hours of work that are needed. 

Also, are the stated teacher salaries annual, pro-rata? Or is that the actual salary for their contracted hours? 

[Banker 1,037]

3 hours ago, HeliX said:

To an extent, but then performance reviews at every job have a subjective element. It's based largely on how well kids do compared to how they were predicted to do, and on lesson observation from a selection of other teachers.

 

At my last job they implemented an awful "peer" performance review, whereby you had to rate your colleagues 1-10 as a nebulous overall assessment of their performance. Can't get any more subjective than that! In protest, everyone at the same job title as me rated everyone else "10" except the managers who put the system in place. They all got 1.

Unless they may it performance related pay then it’s pointless have assessments as no incentive to do extra whilst all the idle buggers know they’re getting same pay rise anyway 

[Apple 663]

360 degree assessments tend not to achieve much. I though school league tables were part of a school /teachers assessment. I don't really care what their colleagues think of a teachers (unless it is dubious or dodgy which presumably would get sorted out straight away anyway) but it is about the effect and impact of teaching on my children that counts. 

2 hours ago, HeliX said:

starting teachers on low 20odd thousands after 4-6 years of study and training is pretty unjust.

Totally agree. This is yet another move to actually reduce pay scales and "encourage " thinning down and then out staff so private enterprise can move in. That is the agenda and that is why managers get nice pay packets to encourage it. Wonder what the KPI's for education managers are.....

[P.K. 5,089]

5 hours ago, manxman34 said:

Should've paid more attention when teachers told you where to use an apostrophe, perhaps, or maybe you think it's their fault.

 

[Meoir Shee 43]

Disputes aren’t always about pay, sometimes conditions too.  From Monday, it would seem you can leave the Island with two choices, self isolate for 2 weeks or 7 days plus a test.  Unless you work in health care/education/public facing etc, when you will have to isolate away from work for the full 14 days, even if your test is negative.  I can only assume that in order to travel health workers will have to book say 3 weeks off, week away, two weeks isolation.  Pupil facing school staff will currently have to wait until July 2021 to travel or be in breach of contract.  I would assume any subsequent vacancies will remain unfilled.

[P.K. 5,089]

4 hours ago, Feelslike said:

When they decide to cease all activities outside of their contracted hours no-one will be bothered then, will they? In which case, let them carry on not doing it, stop all clubs and after school activities and whatever else they say they do at their own cost. 

If it is an issue and the kids and parents don't like it, then the DOE can pay for some other teachers or carers or assistants to come in an cover those activities outside of normal teacher contracted hours. What, there's a shortage of those people? Well who's going to do it then? Oh, the teachers - good idea! Any chance of paying them for it?

I hope they are keeping a record of the hours they each do outside of normal contracted hours. Either pay them more, or employ someone else to pick up the extra hours of work that are needed. 

Also, are the stated teacher salaries annual, pro-rata? Or is that the actual salary for their contracted hours? 

Time and again you hear the same refrain about teachers doing this, that and the other out of the goodness of their hearts no doubt.

Not a thought is ever spared as to whether everything they do is within their contractual hours or not?

Because it could be. The fact is nobody knows. That's a problem for all concerned. Or it should be.

However the main reason I am pushing the back around teacher's T & C's is because on this demand for more wonga during such difficult times for so many folks is right royally taking the piss.

They should have been told to FO discuss it later....

[Gladys 6,830]

2 hours ago, P.K. said:

Time and again you hear the same refrain about teachers doing this, that and the other out of the goodness of their hearts no doubt.

Not a thought is ever spared as to whether everything they do is within their contractual hours or not?

Because it could be. The fact is nobody knows. That's a problem for all concerned. Or it should be.

However the main reason I am pushing the back around teacher's T & C's is because on this demand for more wonga during such difficult times for so many folks is right royally taking the piss.

They should have been told to FO discuss it later....

My Mum was a teacher, she passed away almost three weeks ago.  We had cards from her former pupils, expressing how she fired them in their chosen paths, her kindness and the respect they had for her.  She retired from teaching almost 30 years ago, so in teacher terms, a very, very long time ago. 

How many people have you encountered in your chosen profession would express their respect for you and the impact you had on their lives 30, 40 or 50 years on? 

[Neil Down 7,944]

11 minutes ago, Gladys said:

My Mum was a teacher, she passed away almost three weeks ago.  We had cards from her former pupils, expressing how she fired them in their chosen paths, her kindness and the respect they had for her.  She retired from teaching almost 30 years ago, so in teacher terms, a very, very long time ago. 

How many people have you encountered in your chosen profession would express their respect for you and the impact you had on their lives 30, 40 or 50 years on? 

Some people have very short or selective memories Gladys...

[Gladys 6,830]

6 minutes ago, Neil Down said:

Some people have very short or selective memories Gladys...

Or cannot recognise a gift or the value of it. 

[P.K. 5,089]

53 minutes ago, Gladys said:

My Mum was a teacher, she passed away almost three weeks ago.  We had cards from her former pupils, expressing how she fired them in their chosen paths, her kindness and the respect they had for her.  She retired from teaching almost 30 years ago, so in teacher terms, a very, very long time ago. 

How many people have you encountered in your chosen profession would express their respect for you and the impact you had on their lives 30, 40 or 50 years on? 

Sorry for your loss of course. Difficult times.

With respect iirc teaching was a very different profession 40, 50 or 60 years ago.

Out of curiosity did you notice how many cards were from the girls compared to the boys?

[Gladys 6,830]

25 minutes ago, P.K. said:

Sorry for your loss of course. Difficult times.

With respect iirc teaching was a very different profession 40, 50 or 60 years ago.

Out of curiosity did you notice how many cards were from the girls compared to the boys?

I am not sure the profession is very different, the environment they have to work in may be.  At one time, being a teacher was a respected profession (there are only three classic professions - teaching, law and medicine).  But because it became freely available, its worth was diminished.  There was, and I am sure there still is, a real desire to inform, educate and notice those quiet or 'difficult' pupils who need to be nurtured to achieve their potential and I am sure there are teachers who have taken great personal satisfaction in cracking the difficult nut.

When anything is free, it loses its true value.

 

[gettafa 6,542]

I would say your mother was a rare exception Gladys. God bless her soul.

In all my time, right through school, there may have been one, perhaps two teachers I think would be worthy of any sort of accolade,. And that's not just me, when there is a class reunion or an impromptu meeting in a pub or wherever with contemporaries, others agree.

The teachers were either lazy or disinterested or unemployable anywhere else (for similar wages and conditions) or biding their time for the pension. They were generally all or some of those things to some degree.

 

 

[Apple 663]

5 hours ago, Gladys said:

There was, and I am sure there still is, a real desire to inform, educate and notice those quiet or 'difficult' pupils who need to be nurtured to achieve their potential and I am sure there are teachers who have taken great personal satisfaction in cracking the difficult nut.

This difficult nut owes so much to my teachers of long ago. I will never forget them. They went our of their way to help me and any success (modest only I assume you)  I have had is totally down to them. And there are still people like that around going that extra mile in their approach, their style and their commitment to help pupils grow. Pay them please.

[gettafa 6,542]

3 hours ago, Apple said:

This difficult nut owes so much to my teachers of long ago. I will never forget them. They went our of their way to help me and any success (modest only I assume you)  I have had is totally down to them. And there are still people like that around going that extra mile in their approach, their style and their commitment to help pupils grow. Pay them please.

There will be many under average teachers riding on the backs of the types you refer to. 

[Neil Down 7,944]

17 minutes ago, gettafa said:

There will be many under average teachers riding on the backs of the types you refer to. 

this isn't just limited to the teaching profession. Good ones get dragged down by the small minority