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Teacher’s pay dispute


Banker
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17 hours ago, Roger Mexico said:

More seriously, if teachers are doing this sort of assessment, rather than giving students the chance of internationally-recognised qualifications, it will be because it is the policy of the DESC and another example of their slackness.

I'm not sure that's correct, Roger. The students are doing "internationally" recognised music exams, with locally approved examiners appointed by the various boards doing the assessment/marking according to the Boards standards. If I understand correctly Destinymoon is alleging that perhaps that there may be some kind of manipulation of those standards with assessments that inflates the success rate. If Destinymoon is correct then that's a pretty serious allegation. Is that correct Destinymoon?

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Problem is now that unions have instructed members not to cooperate with new CEO so they whine about old CEO and now he’s gone they don’t want to cooperate unless they get what they want first!!

Good example for the children in acting like spoiled brats. I haven’t met any parents who are supporting teachers in latest disputes 

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1 hour ago, Andy Onchan said:

I'm not sure that's correct, Roger. The students are doing "internationally" recognised music exams, with locally approved examiners appointed by the various boards doing the assessment/marking according to the Boards standards. If I understand correctly Destinymoon is alleging that perhaps that there may be some kind of manipulation of those standards with assessments that inflates the success rate. If Destinymoon is correct then that's a pretty serious allegation. Is that correct Destinymoon?

Ok, two issues here.

The first is, the exams are being held by the department, and the examiners are teachers within the service from grades 1-4 as previously discussed. So a woodwind teacher's student is perhaps being examined by a guitar teacher or the other woodwind teacher. Is there a moderation of this either internally or externally to ensure that this grading is correct (if we check quick enough there maybe isn't, but there may be some scrambling as we speak to ensure that some sort of document can covers this now), and what training has been provided to those 'examiners' to ensure that the guidelines of assessment of a grade 1 player for example meets the requirements of ABRSM or Trinity. 

But has this ever been checked by an advisor? or would the advisor even have a clue about this sort of thing if they taught another subject.... This is how they then provide I guess statistics as to teacher assessment and capability.... kinda like producing your own set of rules and signing off against it. I don't know the answer to this, but I'm sure an MHK or freedom of request could help.

Second, the exams are ran as far as I am aware directly copying the exam boards as discussed above, including recommended pieces and the structure of tests. Has it ever occurred to the department that these professional bodies may hold proprietary rights to the structure and content of these exams. so if a certificate is issued stating that a child is say a grade 2, is this a theft of ownership or copyright of someone else's certification?

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1 hour ago, Destinymoon said:

Ok, two issues here.

The first is, the exams are being held by the department, and the examiners are teachers within the service from grades 1-4 as previously discussed. So a woodwind teacher's student is perhaps being examined by a guitar teacher or the other woodwind teacher. Is there a moderation of this either internally or externally to ensure that this grading is correct (if we check quick enough there maybe isn't, but there may be some scrambling as we speak to ensure that some sort of document can covers this now), and what training has been provided to those 'examiners' to ensure that the guidelines of assessment of a grade 1 player for example meets the requirements of ABRSM or Trinity. 

But has this ever been checked by an advisor? or would the advisor even have a clue about this sort of thing if they taught another subject.... This is how they then provide I guess statistics as to teacher assessment and capability.... kinda like producing your own set of rules and signing off against it. I don't know the answer to this, but I'm sure an MHK or freedom of request could help.

Second, the exams are ran as far as I am aware directly copying the exam boards as discussed above, including recommended pieces and the structure of tests. Has it ever occurred to the department that these professional bodies may hold proprietary rights to the structure and content of these exams. so if a certificate is issued stating that a child is say a grade 2, is this a theft of ownership or copyright of someone else's certification?

What's stopping you from making that FOI request? 

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2 hours ago, Destinymoon said:

Ok, two issues here.

The first is, the exams are being held by the department, and the examiners are teachers within the service from grades 1-4 as previously discussed. So a woodwind teacher's student is perhaps being examined by a guitar teacher or the other woodwind teacher. Is there a moderation of this either internally or externally to ensure that this grading is correct (if we check quick enough there maybe isn't, but there may be some scrambling as we speak to ensure that some sort of document can covers this now), and what training has been provided to those 'examiners' to ensure that the guidelines of assessment of a grade 1 player for example meets the requirements of ABRSM or Trinity. 

But has this ever been checked by an advisor? or would the advisor even have a clue about this sort of thing if they taught another subject.... This is how they then provide I guess statistics as to teacher assessment and capability.... kinda like producing your own set of rules and signing off against it. I don't know the answer to this, but I'm sure an MHK or freedom of request could help.

Second, the exams are ran as far as I am aware directly copying the exam boards as discussed above, including recommended pieces and the structure of tests. Has it ever occurred to the department that these professional bodies may hold proprietary rights to the structure and content of these exams. so if a certificate is issued stating that a child is say a grade 2, is this a theft of ownership or copyright of someone else's certification?

Sounds like a whole lot of speculation and not much substance to me. You're getting worked up over things you admit yourself you don't know about.

 

If the answer to all of the above questions relating to moderation and training was "yes, all exams are moderated and training is given", would you still feel this worked up? Probably.

 

What job did you get turned down for?

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40 minutes ago, DrunkenMonkey said:

Sounds like a whole lot of speculation and not much substance to me. You're getting worked up over things you admit yourself you don't know about.

 

If the answer to all of the above questions relating to moderation and training was "yes, all exams are moderated and training is given", would you still feel this worked up? Probably.

 

What job did you get turned down for?

DrunkenMonkey, just had a brief look at your profile and interestingly the majority of your comments are in regards to education, and quite a few trying to refute my discussions...........it would appear that you think you know quite a bit about the subject, so perhaps your continuous harping on about what job I was turned down for has unfortunately no relevance, as I can assure you I have never been turned down for a job :) Sorry to disappoint.

The speculation you refer to is another opportunity to try to downgrade what is widely known as  concerns in the level of attainment evident now compared to a few years back, so keep plugging away as it is obviously an uncomfortable topic for you to deal with. Are you still teaching the guitar or flute??

You ask:

If the answer to all of the above questions relating to moderation and training was "yes, all exams are moderated and training is given", would you still feel this worked up?

The answer to the above is "yes", (except for the fact that certificates of attainment referring to grades may be illegal) but I hazard a very educated guess that this is not the case.

To simply send in a FOI request is a complete waste of time, as it would not push any agenda for change unless the powers that be took observations and issues of this and other things in regards to accountability, costs and capability highlighted in the Beaman's Report etc. into hand.

There again on a wider reference this is not only a music service issue and the whole structure of Education is questionable and does appear even from reading the Beaman's report to suggest that this simply hides the reality of pupil assessment if not properly and impartially moderated and teaching practice, with many capable headteachers suggesting the SIA's were not working within the expected role they were employed to do (see below).

These are some snap points provided by the Beamans Report:

Governing Boards: Apart from one or two notable exceptions, the role of governing boards in Isle of Man schools is weak. Governing boards play a pivotal role in governance and should be responsible for overseeing and holding to account the leadership and management side of a school.

Education Improvement Service: The role of EIS is conflicted. School Improvement Advisers (SIAs) are expected to provide advice to the School Leadership Team whilst being accountable for the school evaluation (SSRE) process which judges how well the school is performing.

Director of Education: The Director is line manager of 37 headteachers and the Principal of UCM. The Director is also accountable for EIS including line manager of 5 SIAs, and also acts as SIA to one primary and one secondary school. Rarely have we seen a role whose remit and responsibilities are this extensive. Put simply, the remit of the role makes no sense from an organisational, management or governance perspective.

However, in our view, the most significant weakness in the present arrangements is not management or organisational it is cultural.

Independent review and inspection to be managed and co-ordinated by the department.

More widely, with responsibility for evaluating performance now resting elsewhere, the Directors and their teams responsible for the provision of Education Advisory Services and Education Support Services can focus on working in collaboration with headteachers to deliver those services without any conflict of interest or requirement to judge the performance of schools or headteachers.

We now turn to the issue of regulation and inspection. In our view, it will be for the board of Manx Education to determine what mechanisms it wants to put in place to provide assurance to the Minister that there is confident and strong strategic leadership in place and robust accountability, oversight and assurance of schools’ educational and financial performance.

Education Advisory Service – under this approach the SIA will not have any inspection role but will focus on assisting and supporting the headteacher in their school improvement work. Neither will the SIA have any line management role of education support staff (as they do at the moment) but will focus solely on their advisory role

Somebody else noticed the accountability issue too DrunkenMonkey......................

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1 hour ago, Destinymoon said:

DrunkenMonkey, just had a brief look at your profile and interestingly the majority of your comments are in regards to education, and quite a few trying to refute my discussions...........it would appear that you think you know quite a bit about the subject, so perhaps your continuous harping on about what job I was turned down for has unfortunately no relevance, as I can assure you I have never been turned down for a job :) Sorry to disappoint.

The speculation you refer to is another opportunity to try to downgrade what is widely known as  concerns in the level of attainment evident now compared to a few years back, so keep plugging away as it is obviously an uncomfortable topic for you to deal with. Are you still teaching the guitar or flute??

You ask:

If the answer to all of the above questions relating to moderation and training was "yes, all exams are moderated and training is given", would you still feel this worked up?

The answer to the above is "yes", (except for the fact that certificates of attainment referring to grades may be illegal) but I hazard a very educated guess that this is not the case.

To simply send in a FOI request is a complete waste of time, as it would not push any agenda for change unless the powers that be took observations and issues of this and other things in regards to accountability, costs and capability highlighted in the Beaman's Report etc. into hand.

There again on a wider reference this is not only a music service issue and the whole structure of Education is questionable and does appear even from reading the Beaman's report to suggest that this simply hides the reality of pupil assessment if not properly and impartially moderated and teaching practice, with many capable headteachers suggesting the SIA's were not working within the expected role they were employed to do (see below).

These are some snap points provided by the Beamans Report:

Governing Boards: Apart from one or two notable exceptions, the role of governing boards in Isle of Man schools is weak. Governing boards play a pivotal role in governance and should be responsible for overseeing and holding to account the leadership and management side of a school.

Education Improvement Service: The role of EIS is conflicted. School Improvement Advisers (SIAs) are expected to provide advice to the School Leadership Team whilst being accountable for the school evaluation (SSRE) process which judges how well the school is performing.

Director of Education: The Director is line manager of 37 headteachers and the Principal of UCM. The Director is also accountable for EIS including line manager of 5 SIAs, and also acts as SIA to one primary and one secondary school. Rarely have we seen a role whose remit and responsibilities are this extensive. Put simply, the remit of the role makes no sense from an organisational, management or governance perspective.

However, in our view, the most significant weakness in the present arrangements is not management or organisational it is cultural.

Independent review and inspection to be managed and co-ordinated by the department.

More widely, with responsibility for evaluating performance now resting elsewhere, the Directors and their teams responsible for the provision of Education Advisory Services and Education Support Services can focus on working in collaboration with headteachers to deliver those services without any conflict of interest or requirement to judge the performance of schools or headteachers.

We now turn to the issue of regulation and inspection. In our view, it will be for the board of Manx Education to determine what mechanisms it wants to put in place to provide assurance to the Minister that there is confident and strong strategic leadership in place and robust accountability, oversight and assurance of schools’ educational and financial performance.

Education Advisory Service – under this approach the SIA will not have any inspection role but will focus on assisting and supporting the headteacher in their school improvement work. Neither will the SIA have any line management role of education support staff (as they do at the moment) but will focus solely on their advisory role

Somebody else noticed the accountability issue too DrunkenMonkey......................

I give up.

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On 10/14/2020 at 8:54 AM, Banker said:

Problem is now that unions have instructed members not to cooperate with new CEO so they whine about old CEO and now he’s gone they don’t want to cooperate unless they get what they want first!!

Good example for the children in acting like spoiled brats. I haven’t met any parents who are supporting teachers in latest disputes 

Wtf are you on about?  You clearly know fuck-all about it, but spout this shite as though you do. Is your username Cockney rhyming slang?

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  • 2 weeks later...
7 hours ago, Andy Onchan said:

This is more or less how Manx Care started. Get ready for another Arms Length Management Organisation (often known as ALMO, corporatisation, sub privatisation, political failure, cost reduction, assets stripping from the public domain, etc)

Like health it will costs a massive amount of money to bring it in and then they will save such a lot of money we can reduce taxes for the public and /or spend more on the roads etc.

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