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Teacher’s pay dispute


Banker
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3 hours ago, Banker said:

Looks like we’re buying teachers off with nice bonuses for Xmas!

https://www.three.fm/news/isle-of-man-news/move-to-end-teachers-dispute/

The getting a bung and in return there will be no assessment of the quality of education which children will receive. The deal is a charter for the educational neglect of children, see: 

teachers_deal.jpg

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8 hours ago, manxman1980 said:

At one stage Head Teachers, Teachers, Lawyers, Accountants, Doctors, Police Officers and Nurses were held in high esteem by the general public.

Respect is earnt and not given whatever your profession. Teachers need objective robust measures of outcomes (achieve now) to earn respect within wider society.

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20 hours ago, Apple said:

What outcomes should medical staff earnings be based on. ? What are they based on now ?

Get details here, 'Driving up standards of care for patients through publishing surgeons outcomes data'

20 hours ago, Apple said:

School governors, parents, politicians, the law can all be called on to address issues detrimental to children.

Beamans report details the need for:

"A significant strengthening of the role of governors who would become responsible for accountability, oversight and assurance for educational and financial performance of their schools"

The only people who have access to school accounts and attainment data are governors. With law a school can argue almost anything is a "effective education" because they control both the oversight (i.e. self reporting) and the assessment process. Guess why UK, Jersey and Guernsey all have SATS.

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7 minutes ago, BenFairfax said:

Respect is earnt and not given whatever your profession. Teachers need objective robust measures of outcomes (achieve now) to earn respect within wider society.

Trouble is, how do you objectively measure the outcome of a teacher?  Teacher A gets set 1 and everyone gets a top grade.  Teacher B gets set 6 and barely anyone sits the exam.  Teacher C has a pastoral role in the school and doesn’t teach exam classes.  Teacher D works with High Level Needs SEN kids.  Who has performed best/worst/met expectations/failed the kids?

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3 minutes ago, BenFairfax said:

Not on the isle of man, although I agree that and more information should be in the public arena.

 

4 minutes ago, BenFairfax said:

The only people who have access to school accounts and attainment data are governors. With law a school can argue almost anything is a "effective education" because they control both the oversight (i.e. self reporting) and the assessment process.

A bit like Nobles then with the ELT. If you want to delve into this more then look at Tynwald questions next week about medical complaints and Datix. 

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3 hours ago, Apple said:

Not on the isle of man, although I agree that and more information should be in the public arena.

What data in and should be in public domain at least in health the data is being collected (in minute detail) and all medics here and in UK are regulated under same GMC. If a medic outcomes where way off expectation (at aggregate level) then GMC would act here in the same way as in UK. This differs from education service in which there are no objective measures used (other than GCSE, A-level results which DoE does not publish).

With any state institutions (be in health, education or anything else) we set their goals out in legislation, the ability to meet these goals are measured against robust data we collect. The very first step in this task is measuring accurately the outcomes which happen, in health this happens in education this is not the case on IoM.

3 hours ago, Meoir Shee said:

Trouble is, how do you objectively measure the outcome of a teacher?  Teacher A gets set 1 and everyone gets a top grade.  Teacher B gets set 6 and barely anyone sits the exam.  Teacher C has a pastoral role in the school and doesn’t teach exam classes.  Teacher D works with High Level Needs SEN kids.  Who has performed best/worst/met expectations/failed the kids?

I agree, it is a monumental task to just do, let alone fairly. I asked exactly the same question to Head of Manchester High School for Girls in January, and she told me she had a person employed at her school who only collated the internal attainment data. This data collection was continuous, which culminated at end of each year when all students sat exams in all subjects which solely determined the streaming for the following year.... Just saying rest world is taking a data driven approach to management in education using established methods and tools. You know OFSTED mandates entire methodology (via how it models schools) and each student generates plenty of data which schools use to put forward a 'flight path'.

There will be judgement outcomes from such a system on teachers and management, but perhaps the will be fairer than the ones already being made. At very least, the teachers will know the rules of the game. A top-down structure also protects secondary subject teachers and primary teachers against the particular whims of different heads. Heads on Island without strong inspection arm based on data and governance are just too powerful.

 

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6 hours ago, BenFairfax said:

I agree, it is a monumental task to just do, let alone fairly. I asked exactly the same question to Head of Manchester High School for Girls in January, and she told me she had a person employed at her school who only collated the internal attainment data. This data collection was continuous, which culminated at end of each year when all students sat exams in all subjects which solely determined the streaming for the following year.... Just saying rest world is taking a data driven approach to management in education using established methods and tools.

 

But Manchester High School for Girls is a selective, fee paying independent school and the IoM system is comprehensive and free at the point of consumption.  That is a significant difference on many levels.

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Surely there has to be a system for the appraisal of teacher performance which doesn't rely on the outcomes depending on what kids they are teaching, we cannot surely just ignore professional performance altogether ?

I have never seen a pay offer which removes any appraisal of performance ?

Edited by asitis
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35 minutes ago, asitis said:

Surely there has to be a system for the appraisal of teacher performance which doesn't rely on the outcomes depending on what kids they are teaching, we cannot surely just ignore professional performance altogether ?

I have never seen a pay offer which removes any appraisal of performance ?

I’m not sure. We are so obsessed with appraising, measuring and assessing performance and outcomes. Somethings are not capable of measure.

You know, the most important things, parenthood, bringing up kids.

Family member taught metal work and technical drawing in a small secondary modern on the outskirts of a small market town. Catchment was mainly the farming, rural, hinterland. This was from immediate post war to 1980. Most of it before ROSLA.

Most pupils didn’t stay on for CSE or GCE. Those that did he got decent grades with. But he did lots of off syllabus things. Repair of agricultural machinery and cars. Body work and mechanical repairs.

Wouldn’t rate on current appraisal systems. Wouldn’t get away with diversion from national syllabus.

My suspicion is that the moderation of teacher standards is best done at training and then by the school head. Dedicated teacher training colleges probably had better outcomes. Smaller schools definitely so, the head had a better grasp.

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8 minutes ago, John Wright said:

I’m not sure. We are so obsessed with appraising, measuring and assessing performance and outcomes. Somethings are not capable of measure.

Not a lot to argue with in that post. 

Children are battered by pupils performance testing and assessment (or judgement) from day 1. Teachers have regularly and repeatedly been dumped on by rules to oversee criteria in children at school that many are not properly trained for. Some of that needs rolling back. 

I go with the training colleges to weed out poor teachers and Heads with more delegated authority over smaller schools. 

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16 hours ago, BenFairfax said:

Respect is earnt and not given whatever your profession. Teachers need objective robust measures of outcomes (achieve now) to earn respect within wider society.

If you send a child to school with that attitude then they will never pay attention to their teachers and will never learn therefore the teaching outcomes become worse.

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2 hours ago, Apple said:

Not a lot to argue with in that post. 

Children are battered by pupils performance testing and assessment (or judgement) from day 1. Teachers have regularly and repeatedly been dumped on by rules to oversee criteria in children at school that many are not properly trained for. Some of that needs rolling back. 

I go with the training colleges to weed out poor teachers and Heads with more delegated authority over smaller schools. 

The sad truth is that teachers were already weeded out when the National Curriculum arrived. Only it was the good ones that left not the bad and the situation from twenty years has never truly recovered.

The good teachers had already been covering an excellent 'national curriculum' for years but a minority weren't and instead of scooping them up, checking them, managing them and providing them with additional training it was decided instead to make the whole lot jump through a new set of hoops.  It demoralised the good teachers who, now instead of spending their time teaching were spending a huge part of their days (and nights) ticking boxes. 

As ever, if only there had been a system where the weak could have been supported rather than the strong being overwhelmed to make up for the weaker.  It is ever thus.

Trying to get rid of an incompetent teacher is an onerous task.  A series of competent based assessments that can take months and even years. Union involvement doesn't help as they protect the teacher rather than the children. This is why, so often they are persuaded to go on permanent 'sick leave or medical retirement as, for some, it's the only way they can be persuaded to go.

 

You're so right about the children too.  I discussed this in another post before but there are many coming into schools feeling like a failure from day one. It can be 'disguised' more in primary schools but once in secondary school in a non vocational setting where they are required to move from class to class and stick to a timetable of subjects they are unable to understand and with an unmovable uniform standard, they soon begin to fail.

That said, schools do a marvellous job with many of these children but 'value added' isn't measured. Not for pupils, not for staff.  All that matters is exam results and many are just not cut out for it. It's a crying shame.  All of it.

 

 

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17 hours ago, BenFairfax said:

The getting a bung and in return there will be no assessment of the quality of education which children will receive. The deal is a charter for the educational neglect of children, see: 

teachers_deal.jpg

Paying teachers what they should have been paid three years ago is a "bung" now, is it? Goodness me.

As for "robust measures of performance", most teachers would agree, as good teachers don't want to carry the bad ones. Alas, in education there is a tendency to value what is measurable rather than measure what is valuable.

Think of the best and worst teachers you had. What made them good or bad? It's the soft skills that are not easily measurable.

Edited by tetchtyke
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19 hours ago, Meoir Shee said:

Trouble is, how do you objectively measure the outcome of a teacher?  Teacher A gets set 1 and everyone gets a top grade.  Teacher B gets set 6 and barely anyone sits the exam.  Teacher C has a pastoral role in the school and doesn’t teach exam classes.  Teacher D works with High Level Needs SEN kids.  Who has performed best/worst/met expectations/failed the kids?

As an ex special needs teacher I totally agree. Most ordinary education professionals didn't seem to understand the needs of our pupils, so I don't know how the government or the general public are in any position to judge SEN teachers or NNEBs.

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A number of the comments on here show why there is always a high demand for private tutors and those who can afford it either get tutors or send kids to KWC.

it’s the same as most things money helps but it’s always the disadvantaged kids who lose out , same during lockdown 

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