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Just now, John Wright said:

A highway maintainable at public expense is publicly owned. The public can use it without the need for a right of way. A right of way, public or private is over the land belonging to a private third party.

Ah, thanks. Well it should be even more cut and dried, but if they are successful in convincing our people that it should be closed, it will be a very dangerous precedent. 

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Yes I'm kind of getting that impression of you.

So Rich bloke doesn't want the Island's great unwashed cycling and walking through a small piece of his land...fancy that.

At one time the Grand Island was the best hotel on the island .  The reason that it fell into disrepair was calculated neglect , as were a couple of other hotels in Douglas/Onchan. It's not

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22 minutes ago, Max Power said:

Ah, thanks. Well it should be even more cut and dried, but if they are successful in convincing our people that it should be closed, it will be a very dangerous precedent. 

It’s not that easy. The tithe and asylum plans seem to indicate it was a quarter land road. So that’s a private right belonging to the frontagers, ie the people owning on either side. It may have served a small holding that no longer exists and either side of the lane were in separate ownership. So three landowners had rights. It’s now all in one ownership. So if it was a quarter land road and is now in single ownership it will have ceased to exist - you can’t have these types of rights over your own land.

It appears on the definitive map of highways under the 1986 Act, but there is some doubt as to the basis upon which it was included and whether it’s actually been maintained by the Highways division, Department or Board since then, or indeed in the 100 years before that.

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23 minutes ago, Max Power said:

Ah, thanks. Well it should be even more cut and dried, but if they are successful in convincing our people that it should be closed, it will be a very dangerous precedent. 

I dont know about closing it, as I walked through a few years ago and it was almost impassable and needed thigh boots to get through the water at the Bernahara end by rose cottage and there is a small plantation that end that would need major work.

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22 minutes ago, John Wright said:

It’s not that easy. The tithe and asylum plans seem to indicate it was a quarter land road. So that’s a private right belonging to the frontagers, ie the people owning on either side. It may have served a small holding that no longer exists and either side of the lane were in separate ownership. So three landowners had rights. It’s now all in one ownership. So if it was a quarter land road and is now in single ownership it will have ceased to exist - you can’t have these types of rights over your own land.

It appears on the definitive map of highways under the 1986 Act, but there is some doubt as to the basis upon which it was included and whether it’s actually been maintained by the Highways division, Department or Board since then, or indeed in the 100 years before that.

Thanks John, that makes sense, although it will probably result in a huge and expensive inquiry I imagine? 

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5 minutes ago, Max Power said:

Thanks John, that makes sense, although it will probably result in a huge and expensive inquiry I imagine? 

Yes. The application by Ballaseyr for an injunction was withdrawn on Friday against the DoI giving an undertaking not to do any work to open it up. That’s was to last pending resolution of the dispute.

I don’t think there’d be any real objection to persons on foot, pedal cycles, or even horses. It’s motor bikes and quads, I suspect.

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24 minutes ago, John Wright said:

A highway maintainable at public expense is publicly owned. The public can use it without the need for a right of way. A right of way, public or private is over the land belonging to a private third party.

The law is intentionally convoluted,  it keeps lawyers in a job and gives advantage to people like TH who can afford a fancy lawyer. 

They don't want the hoi polloi knowing all the ins and outs. 

You'd think as the law (in theory) applies to everyone,  it would be written in a way that everyone could easily access and interpret it. 

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11 minutes ago, Chris C said:

The law is intentionally convoluted,  it keeps lawyers in a job and gives advantage to people like TH who can afford a fancy lawyer. 

They don't want the hoi polloi knowing all the ins and outs. 

You'd think as the law (in theory) applies to everyone,  it would be written in a way that everyone could easily access and interpret it. 

It’s more to do with history and how things developed. In the case of highways maintainable at public expense it’s not the law but the history and records.

Before 1750 ( approx - I can’t be bothered going looking up the legislation to give precise dates ) roads from place to place were maintainable by the owners on either side. You got a right to pass over your neighbours bit of the road in exchange for maintaining your bit. OK in small communities and villages, not so good over long distances. But people didn’t travel much. Just the lord and his servants, officers and militia.

Thats why in Manx law there’s no liability for roads deteriorating and becoming unsafe. It could happen to anyone.

Then we introduced parochial surveyors. We didn’t have rates or income tax, but we had dog licence fees and pub licence fees. The income in each parish was available to pay materials, surveyors expenses, and he could compel inhabitants to do the work.

The surveyors were given a liability exemption.

Eventually we got rates and central government and a Highways Board. A surveyor general. Roads historically maintained by the parochial surveyors were transferee to the government as was the ongoing maintenance.

The last tidy up was 1986. You can imagine records going back to the 1880’s and 1770’s are sketchy. But the 1986 definitive Highways map is the best we have. Based on records and memories of the time.

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Thanks for the history lesson,  it is interesting how things developed and the complications it has caused. 

I still think that law in general is needlessly complex. 

You say 1986 definitive highways map is based on sketchy records and memories - where does this leave it in the eyes of the law? Is it definitive in that respect?

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17 minutes ago, Chris C said:

Thanks for the history lesson,  it is interesting how things developed and the complications it has caused. 

I still think that law in general is needlessly complex. 

You say 1986 definitive highways map is based on sketchy records and memories - where does this leave it in the eyes of the law? Is it definitive in that respect?

It’s definitive unless it’s challenged successfully 

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4 minutes ago, John Wright said:

It’s definitive unless it’s challenged successfully 

Which presumably could only be done with records or memories? Which presumably would have to differ from those used in 1986 assuming they were applied correctly? 

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10 minutes ago, doc.fixit said:

....or having lots of money to enable the cost a challenge!

And TH's finances are probably in better shape than IoMG's right now... :lol:

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