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Spat between Chief Minister and Dr Glover


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1 minute ago, Roger Mexico said:

Oh quite - that's why I relegated it to a footnote earlier.  But the telling point was that her employment status, in their eyes, justified her being excluded from any input into policy.  Who you were, rather than what you had to offer was the important thing.

telling or damning, either way I very much agree with your summary there and am once again not surprised but disappointed

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With respect, you are. Without @rachomics on island PCR testing for covid would not have happened when it did, if at all. Of course, Rizwan Khan and Steve Doyle were vital too - sorry don’t know Dr Sh

This is what is so extraordinary.  Except it now appears they had since Wednesday morning to get the response correct and they still managed to come up with something that made a staged denunciation a

I quite enjoy Manx Forums. There's nothing wrong with a bit of satire.  Happy to defend myself, wherever that may be. I grew up knocking around Willaston so while you may believe that someone wit

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The amazing thing for me is how Covid is pushing people into the limelight who nobody had ever heard of before.  I mean, be honest, who had heard of Dr Rachel Glover before this?  Or UK Government Chief Scientific Adviser Sir Patrick Vallance, who is now a regular performer on the box alongside Boris Johnson?  It's like watching the tide go out and in the rock pools you find all sorts of weird blobby things with tentacles that you never even knew were things.

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They've now delayed the Covid media briefing from 4 pm today until tomorrow.  Apparently it's because the weekly meeting of the Council of Ministers was also delayed, after a series of workshops.  Those who pretend to run the country can't even sort out their own scheduling it seems.

It seems a bit strange that know they are going to over-run now and they haven't been shy about moving the start time at last minutes before.  So it looks like they may be trying to get the 'line' right on the 'spat'.  Though @rachomics herself pointed out that there are other important things to talk about.

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9 minutes ago, slinkydevil said:

https://www.manxradio.com/news/isle-of-man-news/health-minister-saddened-by-dr-glover-resignation/

0:33 seconds: "she's not an employee of DHSC, she's an external contrator.." David Ashford

122933387-1700430640115016-9409495442992

Resigned.

Screenshot-2020-10-29-at-15-03-05.png

'a series of workshops' = getting the copywriter to come up with some good excuses.

so towards the end when asked who we have to replace Dr Glover.... the highly qualified consultant that's in the team... as a consultant..... are they employed or....?

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27 minutes ago, ian rush said:

Scientists advise, politicians decide.

Scientists advise, politicians bring in consultants to advise again so they can then blame someone and not make a decision.

Edited by Lxxx
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It's probably all down to how you define an "employee". I suspect she was not "on the books" and being paid a salary with ITIP and NIC deductions, which would make it correct that she was not an "employee".

A lot of people work for entities as "self employed", such Manx Radio presenters. Some of these people might say (for instance - not saying they do in reality) that they "work for the Radio station", or wherever, and they may even say that they are "employed", when it is their company that is employed (contracted).

Just surmising that Rachel's company may have been contracted to the DHSC, but that she was not, as an individual, subject to DHSC employment rules, terms and conditions.

What's in a word?

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The IoM Govt, like other small jurisdictions 'automatically' promotes too many people from within, based in many instances on length of service/dead mans shoes, as opposed to actively seeking better qualified applicants who are suitable for the job. A number of Govt senior managers are in positions they could only dream of occupying in a corporate environment, and get by through daily bluff and bluster. When someone who is capable, intelligent and articulate threatens their delicate self esteem, they turn on them, as I suspect is the case with Dr Glover. It is a sad indictment on the civil service in general. 

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2 minutes ago, Out of the blue said:

The IoM Govt, like other small jurisdictions 'automatically' promotes too many people from within, based in many instances on length of service/dead mans shoes, as opposed to actively seeking better qualified applicants who are suitable for the job. A number of Govt senior managers are in positions they could only dream of occupying in a corporate environment, and get by through daily bluff and bluster. When someone who is capable, intelligent and articulate threatens their delicate self esteem, they turn on them, as I suspect is the case with Dr Glover. It is a sad indictment on the civil service in general. 

It does sometimes feel like we're stuck in a Simon Pegg film set in Gloucestershire where it's all about the greater good. The greater good.

The real challenge though is how on earth you move away from it, when rocking the boat just gets you tipped off, and everyone else is comfy enough to plod along.

I think the Island in a lot of areas is the sort of place you can get by, and not just in politics, by not being so awful you're dangerous.

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23 minutes ago, monasqueen said:

It's probably all down to how you define an "employee". I suspect she was not "on the books" and being paid a salary with ITIP and NIC deductions, which would make it correct that she was not an "employee".

A lot of people work for entities as "self employed", such Manx Radio presenters. Some of these people might say (for instance - not saying they do in reality) that they "work for the Radio station", or wherever, and they may even say that they are "employed", when it is their company that is employed (contracted).

Just surmising that Rachel's company may have been contracted to the DHSC, but that she was not, as an individual, subject to DHSC employment rules, terms and conditions.

What's in a word?

There's a lot in a word and people who provide their services through a company do confuse the real contractual position.   If "she " has resigned, but in fact it is the company that has withdrawn its services, then there may be breach of contract issues.  

It will all come out in the wash, probably. 

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1 hour ago, Rhumsaa said:

I see it as the politicians being unable to deviate from speaking in absolutes and always wanting to be right

In the scheme of things it's such a nothing point whether she's directly employed or contract or bank staff or whatever - bottom line is she was working with the health dept and being paid by IOM Gov so that's a dead easy general press conference answer - the contractual nuances are only important if you're wanting to be pricks about it all

I agree that in the specifics of getting the Lab up and running the employment status is mostly a 'nothing point' as you state - but in many other areas such as Professional Indemnity insurance, General litigation, Intellectual property rights etc.  it is absolutely vital that the correct status is known and accepted by both sides from the off. It's such a basic and vital question that I am astonished that the two sides are seemingly at odds over this.

Human medical negligence claims and Coroner's courts are a quantum leap from animal testing.

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2 minutes ago, Manximus Aururaneus said:

I agree that in the specifics of getting the Lab up and running the employment status is mostly a 'nothing point' as you state - but in many other areas such as Professional Indemnity insurance, General litigation, Intellectual property rights etc.  it is absolutely vital that the correct status is known and accepted by both sides from the off. It's such a basic and vital question that I am astonished that the two sides are seemingly at odds over this.

Human medical negligence claims and Coroner's courts are a quantum leap from animal testing.

Yeah but all that side of thing is going to be sorted and signed off - this is press conference semantics and a ridiculous flabbering around because people are trying to give "political answers" like they're wannabe Boris Johnson's going up against Paxman

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15 minutes ago, Manximus Aururaneus said:

I agree that in the specifics of getting the Lab up and running the employment status is mostly a 'nothing point' as you state - but in many other areas such as Professional Indemnity insurance, General litigation, Intellectual property rights etc.  it is absolutely vital that the correct status is known and accepted by both sides from the off. It's such a basic and vital question that I am astonished that the two sides are seemingly at odds over this.

Human medical negligence claims and Coroner's courts are a quantum leap from animal testing.

Compliance. That's what I was alluding to earlier in the thread. 

Edited by Andy Onchan
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11 minutes ago, Rhumsaa said:

Yeah but all that side of thing is going to be sorted and signed off - 

You might be surprised how that sort of stuff doesn't get sorted right from day one. I witnessed it.

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