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Spat between Chief Minister and Dr Glover


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22 hours ago, Roger Mexico said:

Probably not Public Health, who seem to be as little listened to as @rachomics, opposition is more likely to be from withing the DHSC hierarchy - especially from those with no medical or scientific qualifications of their own.  And also I suspect from those within the Cabinet Office especially Communications and External Affairs, who seem more interested in telling a 'good story' than whether it is actually true.

Psst... I think we’ve just found our man. Or woman. 

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With respect, you are. Without @rachomics on island PCR testing for covid would not have happened when it did, if at all. Of course, Rizwan Khan and Steve Doyle were vital too - sorry don’t know Dr Sh

Have you never heard the term whistle-blowing? Dr G. tried every avenue and was well aware of what was at risk on her island. She isn't doing this for publicity, she's been offered far better gigs tha

I quite enjoy Manx Forums. There's nothing wrong with a bit of satire.  Happy to defend myself, wherever that may be. I grew up knocking around Willaston so while you may believe that someone wit

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33 minutes ago, Dr. Grumpy said:

With respect, you are incorrect. It was people like Dr Shields, Mr Doyle and Dr Khan who were and are key to our success with on-island testing for COVID-19

You seem to know a lot more than is in the public domain. And yet you had to look up Rachel Glover? Hmmm...

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1 hour ago, Dr. Grumpy said:

Hmm.... I had to look up Dr. Glover. As far as I can ascertain, she is not a medical doctor and does not have any relevant field expertise or experience in controlling a Pandemic. Also there's plenty of local experience and expertise in laboratory diagnosis of COVID-19. So I'm at a loss trying to understand why we think HQ should be listening to her rather than his Public Health and Infection control consultants. What am I missing here?

Why do you need to be a medical doctor to set up laboratory facilities and offer expertise in molecular diagnostics and the like?

We have plenty of medical personnel on the island who have presided over one of the most inefficient and dysfunctional bureaucracies many will see in their lifetime. I would think this is the exact time we need heads other than our own Public Health to offer opinions in a scenario none of them will have faced before.  

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1 hour ago, Dr. Grumpy said:

With respect, you are incorrect. It was people like Dr Shields, Mr Doyle and Dr Khan who were and are key to our success with on-island testing for COVID-19

With respect, you are. Without @rachomics on island PCR testing for covid would not have happened when it did, if at all. Of course, Rizwan Khan and Steve Doyle were vital too - sorry don’t know Dr Shields. 
 

One reason Rachel needs to be involved in testing strategy discussions is logistics. She knows better than everyone how much we can do here, and how quickly etc. It’s no good someone announcing a mass-testing policy at borders, for example, if there’s been no discussion as to how it might or might not work. 

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9 minutes ago, wrighty said:

With respect, you are. Without @rachomics on island PCR testing for covid would not have happened when it did, if at all. Of course, Rizwan Khan and Steve Doyle were vital too - sorry don’t know Dr Shields. 
 

One reason Rachel needs to be involved in testing strategy discussions is logistics. She knows better than everyone how much we can do here, and how quickly etc. It’s no good someone announcing a mass-testing policy at borders, for example, if there’s been no discussion as to how it might or might not work. 

And I was wrong, apparently :cool:

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9 minutes ago, wrighty said:

With respect, you are. Without @rachomics on island PCR testing for covid would not have happened when it did, if at all. Of course, Rizwan Khan and Steve Doyle were vital too - sorry don’t know Dr Shields. 
 

One reason Rachel needs to be involved in testing strategy discussions is logistics. She knows better than everyone how much we can do here, and how quickly etc. It’s no good someone announcing a mass-testing policy at borders, for example, if there’s been no discussion as to how it might or might not work. 

We can agree to disagree on this Wrighty, Rachel's input has to be weighted equally with that of the colleagues mentioned above whilst formulating policy in my view.

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2 minutes ago, Dr. Grumpy said:

We can agree to disagree on this Wrighty, Rachel's input has to be weighted equally with that of the colleagues mentioned above whilst formulating policy in my view.

No-one is suggesting otherwise. Rather it is you that seems to be suggesting her input should be valued less due to her not being a medical doctor??

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Oh... I have my own thread on MF now. Not sure if that's good or bad or I've transcended into some kind of hell dimension. So much I could say about this thread but I think I'd need a gin first :blink:

6 hours ago, Dr. Grumpy said:

With respect, you are incorrect. It was people like Dr Shields, Mr Doyle and Dr Khan who were and are key to our success with on-island testing for COVID-19

As @wrighty said, with all due respect to those named, you are incorrect. Rebbeca Shields (not a doc, a BMS), Steve Doyle and Rizwan Khan have all had their parts to play (and I love them lots because I've spent so much time with them over the last seven months they're almost family) but they didn't have the skills and experience to bring a professional high-throughput molecular diagnostics COVID19 lab (Lighthouse Lab equivalent) to the Isle of Man, which is to be expected given the size of the IoM! I wouldn't have been needed otherwise and I'm hoping some of my experience will have been passed on in the last seven months. 

It sounds like you work at the hospital but if you were to ask any of the lab staff (even in other areas like biochem or histopath) you'll get the answer that I was critical but just hid away in the lab during the outbreak working my ass off rather than telling every medic, nurse and HCA what I was doing there. Hospital staff know Bex, Steve and Rizwan, they didn't (and still don't) know me. To a lot of people who "popped in" to the microbiology office I would have just been another new face. The senior managers at DHSC didn't have a clue who I was or what I had done until about 2 weeks ago. 

Edited by rachomics
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4 hours ago, Lxxx said:

No-one is suggesting otherwise. Rather it is you that seems to be suggesting her input should be valued less due to her not being a medical doctor??

Jeez. Don't you guys know that a medical degree is only a masters-equivalent with a courtesy title of "Dr."? Every consultant medic I've spoken with has said "PhD? Oh God, you're a REAL doctor!". 

Edited by rachomics
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5 hours ago, Dr. Grumpy said:

We can agree to disagree on this Wrighty, Rachel's input has to be weighted equally with that of the colleagues mentioned above whilst formulating policy in my view.

While I agree that all the inputs are very important, Rizwan, Steve and Bex tend to defer to me when it comes to how many samples we can process in the lab with the equipment we have. I used to run a UK government molecular diagnostics facility that tested 20k samples per week so they realise that I know a little bit about what I'm doing. 

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1 hour ago, rachomics said:

Oh... I have my own thread on MF now. Not sure if that's good or bad or I've transcended into some kind of hell dimension. So much I could say about this thread but I think I'd need a gin first :blink:

As @wrighty said, with all due respect to those named, you are incorrect. Rebbeca Shields (not a doc, a BMS), Steve Doyle and Rizwan Khan have all had their parts to play (and I love them lots because I've spent so much time with them over the last seven months they're almost family) but they didn't have the skills and experience to bring a professional high-throughput molecular diagnostics COVID19 lab (Lighthouse Lab equivalent) to the Isle of Man, which is to be expected given the size of the IoM! I wouldn't have been needed otherwise and I'm hoping some of my experience will have been passed on in the last seven months. 

It sounds like you work at the hospital but if you were to ask any of the lab staff (even in other areas like biochem or histopath) you'll get the answer that I was critical but just hid away in the lab during the outbreak working my ass off rather than telling every medic, nurse and HCA what I was doing there. Hospital staff know Bex, Steve and Rizwan, they didn't (and still don't) know me. To a lot of people who "popped in" to the microbiology office I would have just been another new face. The senior managers at DHSC didn't have a clue who I was or what I had done until about 2 weeks ago. 

While I take my hat off to your contribution to the SARS COV 2 Testing efforts, may I humbly remind you that it was and is a team effort. The health system is a huge and complex machine, with thousands of moving parts, all of which have a role and therefore important. I hope you will agree that whilst all the team members are important, we are also not indispensable. 

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6 minutes ago, Dr. Grumpy said:

While I take my hat off to your contribution to the SARS COV 2 Testing efforts, may I humbly remind you that it was and is a team effort. The health system is a huge and complex machine, with thousands of moving parts, all of which have a role and therefore important. I hope you will agree that whilst all the team members are important, we are also not indispensable. 

Absolutely, and I have blown the trumpet publicly many times about the microbiology team and how much they "stepped up" to take on testing that would normally not be anywhere near a hospital lab.

However, that testing would not have existed had I not sent an email to Steve Doyle back in March. The microbiology department would have, effectively, been a Post Office for sending samples to PHE in Manchester on a 3-day turnaround. If I were to walk away from the on-Island testing to concentrate on my business there would be no elective surgery, no endoscopy, and most hospital admissions would not be tested as they came through the door. I do think that is worthy of me "blowing my trumpet". The UK Government spent a hideous amount of money over 15 years training me to do what I can do and, ultimately, during COVID19 the IoM has been benefitting from that. 

Feel free to send me a PM, happy to meet with any DHSC staff in the canteen for a cuppa! 

Edited by rachomics
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37 minutes ago, rachomics said:

If I were to walk away from the on-Island testing to concentrate on my business there would be no elective surgery...

There probably would be, but it would be far more hamstrung than it already is. 
 

Initially, UK Royal College guidance was for elective patients to test and then isolate for 14 days before retesting. We went somewhat ‘out on a limb’ and brought in a 3 day policy, given our covid-free status. This was not without regulatory difficulty. Consequently, at Noble’s we’ve had almost 3 months of near normal elective surgery. In Liverpool they managed a week. We couldn’t have done this without local testing and would probably have been bound to the 14 day rule initially, although interestingly the UK followed our lead and shifted to 3 day isolation. 
 

The Isle of Man - remarkably, not everything here is rubbish, despite the general opinion of the forum contributors who (perhaps) live here. 

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