Bus Driver Training Insufficient!

[Chris C 419]

And chocked one of the wheels with an old house brick you carried in the boot especially for the purpose - although it also came in handy for banging on the starter motor when she wouldn't start. 

[tetchtyke 262]

17 hours ago, Scotty said:

You have missed the point here by a mile. Driver broke the rules on at least two counts. His fault 100%.

This only happens with Gov. jobs, in that everyone is at fault except the person involved. 
A driver in a private company has a problem with his load and some IBCs fall over. Sacked straight away.
No comeback, no inquiry, no compo, no tribunal, no fuck all. That is reality. Being stupid in Gov jobs has it’s rewards. 
Can’t wait to see the pay off for the bus driver. 
We are paying this.

Um, the bus driver was immediately  sacked, the sacking was upheld on appeal and the independent tribunal said he shouldn't have been. Perhaps if Longworth had done the investigation properly the dismissal would have stood. Perhaps if Cawte hadn't lost interview notes and then sought to cover it up the dismissal would have stood. I guess we'll never know.

As for private companies, they lose tribunals all the time too.

Finally, I can't believe MB would design a braking system which disengages when it loses electrical power. That's just insane.

Edited November 15, 2020 by tetchtyke

[Anyone 183]

Ban buses. They are dangerous and empty anyway. And they spew out fumes , I think , or have we spent zillions on nectar powered buses?

[Scotty 495]

17 minutes ago, tetchtyke said:

Um, the bus driver was immediately  sacked, the sacking was upheld on appeal and the independent tribunal said he shouldn't have been. Perhaps if Longworth had done the investigation properly the dismissal would have stood. Perhaps if Cawte hadn't lost interview notes and then sought to cover it up the dismissal would have stood. I guess we'll never know.

As for private companies, they lose tribunals all the time too.

Finally, I can't believe MB would design a braking system which disengages when it loses electrical power. That's just insane.

The Hold Brake is a temporary measure when at bus stops or stop signs ( when the driver is still at the controls. How do people not understand that is not a park brake anymore than putting an automatic car into “park” on a hill and leaving the handbrake off.

[Scotty 495]

7 minutes ago, Scotty said:

The Hold Brake is a temporary measure when at bus stops or stop signs ( when the driver is still at the controls. How do people not understand that is not a park brake anymore than putting an automatic car into “park” on a hill and leaving the handbrake off.

PS.the tribunal , as far I understood, agreed the driver deserved to be dismissed, just in a different manner, such is our sick society where people can get away with things through technicalities like in this case. Same as serious crims being freed because the dates were wrong or a name spelling wrongly.

[AcousticallyChallenged 924]

9 minutes ago, Scotty said:

The Hold Brake is a temporary measure when at bus stops or stop signs ( when the driver is still at the controls. How do people not understand that is not a park brake anymore than putting an automatic car into “park” on a hill and leaving the handbrake off.

It's more comparable to the hill-hold assist that many modern manual and automatic cars have, which modulate brake pressure using the ABS pump. I'd guess that it works in a similar way, holding the service brake on. Take away power, on car or bus, and the mechanisms involved just release.

Automatic cars have a pawl that engages to lock the transmission in place, and will hold a car on a hill. This however causes the transmission to be holding the weight of the car, which isn't ideal, hence the handbrake.

I imagine it'll fall under human factors, you don't always think when something isn't working and you're running late. It's the reason pilots have checklists for everything and do them by rote, then they're validated again before anything hairy.

[tetchtyke 262]

8 minutes ago, Scotty said:

The Hold Brake is a temporary measure when at bus stops or stop signs ( when the driver is still at the controls. How do people not understand that is not a park brake anymore than putting an automatic car into “park” on a hill and leaving the handbrake off.

It's not like the park function on an auto transmission, it's like the electronic parking brake you get on most modern road cars. On mine the EPB activates the handbrake if the engine cuts out for whatever reason.

But on the Citaro it's the hold brake that activates if the engine is turned off or if the driver gets out of the cab. It's not the compressed air parking brake that activates in those situations.

So if it acts like a parking brake, you're used to cars where the electronic parking brake activates as a handbrake when the engine is turned off, you're used to other models of bus that only have a compressed air parking brake, and you've not been told it's not a parking brake, then it's easy to see how these things happen.

On a Citaro the hold brake button is right in the middle of the dash but the air brake button is down to the driver's side.

Goes to show that driving a new model of bus requires proper training rather than a 20 minute run through.

[tetchtyke 262]

13 minutes ago, Scotty said:

PS.the tribunal , as far I understood, agreed the driver deserved to be dismissed, just in a different manner, such is our sick society where people can get away with things through technicalities like in this case. Same as serious crims being freed because the dates were wrong or a name spelling wrongly.

Then you understood wrongly:

301. Had Mr Bates been in possession of all the evidence that could have been available, then the  
Tribunal consider that he could not fairly have reached a conclusion of summary dismissal so  
that there never would have been any appeal to Mr Longworth. That complete evidence,  
plus the comparator of Mr XY, coupled with the Complainant being a hitherto model  
employee, pointed to him being permitted to keep his job.  
302. The flaws in the investigation process led to the unjust conclusion of summary dismissal.
With an adequate investigation, that outcome of summary dismissal would or should have  
been different, consistent with the approach in Polkey v A.E Dayton Services Limited.

 

So no,the Tribunal didn't think he should have been fired.

[Two-lane 210]

The discussion so far has been centred on someone turning the electrics off. But because this brake is an electrical system, a failure can occur at any time, anywhere - yes, it is unlikely, but that can happen.

Is there any guidance given to drivers about this possibility?

And, I assume the bus companies have to do a Failure Mode and Effect Analysis on all systems - I hope....

 

 

 

[Scotty 495]

36 minutes ago, tetchtyke said:

It's not like the park function on an auto transmission, it's like the electronic parking brake you get on most modern road cars. On mine the EPB activates the handbrake if the engine cuts out for whatever reason.

But on the Citaro it's the hold brake that activates if the engine is turned off or if the driver gets out of the cab. It's not the compressed air parking brake that activates in those situations.

So if it acts like a parking brake, you're used to cars where the electronic parking brake activates as a handbrake when the engine is turned off, you're used to other models of bus that only have a compressed air parking brake, and you've not been told it's not a parking brake, then it's easy to see how these things happen.

On a Citaro the hold brake button is right in the middle of the dash but the air brake button is down to the driver's side.

Goes to show that driving a new model of bus requires proper training rather than a 20 minute run through.

Your first paragraph is wrong . It is not like the ones on , say , the Nissan. It is very different. Totally different.

[Scotty 495]

13 minutes ago, Two-lane said:

The discussion so far has been centred on someone turning the electrics off. But because this brake is an electrical system, a failure can occur at any time, anywhere - yes, it is unlikely, but that can happen.

Is there any guidance given to drivers about this possibility?

And, I assume the bus companies have to do a Failure Mode and Effect Analysis on all systems - I hope....

 

 

 

Why would a hold brake fail anywhere. It is a mechanism used while the driver is seated. It has NO effect on the normal braking system. 
People who have no idea about these, shouldn’t post. Just shows their ignorance 

[AcousticallyChallenged 924]

3 hours ago, Scotty said:

Why would a hold brake fail anywhere. It is a mechanism used while the driver is seated. It has NO effect on the normal braking system. 
People who have no idea about these, shouldn’t post. Just shows their ignorance 

Well, technically it is contingent on the normal braking system. The literature suggests it just holds the service brake on for you. Note that the message it gives is 'Bus stop brake active'. Unless the driver has been made to read every page of the manual, there's nothing that suggests don't leave the cab and isolate the batteries with just this brake applied. You even get the red (P) symbol to suggest the brakes are on. See page 170

https://buses.mercedesbenzmena.com/media/1503996/articulatedba_citaro_eurovi_c62823.pdf

 

 

Edited November 15, 2020 by AcousticallyChallenged
Edit: page 170 in manual

[Scotty 495]

3 minutes ago, AcousticallyChallenged said:

Well, technically it is contingent on the normal braking system. The literature suggests it just holds the service brake on for you. Note that the message it gives is 'Bus stop brake active'. Unless the driver has been made to read every page of the manual, there's nothing that suggests don't leave the cab and isolate the batteries with just this brake applied. You even get the red (P) symbol to suggest the brakes are on. See page 170

https://buses.mercedesbenzmena.com/media/1503996/articulatedba_citaro_eurovi_c62823.pdf

 

 

Bull shit. You have lost all my respect trying to be  clever an£ failing  badly.

[AcousticallyChallenged 924]

Just now, Scotty said:

Bull shit. You have lost all my respect trying to be  clever an£ failing  badly.

Which part? Realistically, there's two ways you can apply pneumatic brakes. You can either let the air out, engaging the parking brake, or you can hold the service brake on by shutting a solenoid. Ain't exactly rocket surgery.

I wasn't really trying to earn any of your respect, you come across as grumpy and wanting to argue with anyone. But let's go with pretty pictures.

To anyone that hadn't had it pointed out to them, that would look like the brakes were on. Especially if you were more concerned with fixing a problem on the bus.