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Vaccine- who will have it?


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40 minutes ago, Barlow said:

We're not all as clever and smart as you John. I'm not very bright and I probably am irrational but I try my best. It is a difficult time.

There is a possibility that someone has introduced Covid-19 into Abbotswood. It was introduced somehow and by somebody. If it can be found they did indeed have Covid then that raises the possibility of their introducing the disease at that time. An inoculation might nullify the process of discovering if they had Covid previously.

I hope that temporarily satisfies your need to pounce on people not as superior and erudite as yourself

I’m neither superior, nor erudite. But your position still doesn’t explain why YOU want an antibody test before getting vaccinated. It’s simply not relevant. And someone, anyone, taking Covid into Abbottswood a year ago is no reason for you to put off getting vaccinated.

Look, I’m immunocompromised, leukaemia fucked off a lifetime of immunity, I can’t wait to get jabbed. No idea if it’ll work. But I lose nothing.

I had pneumonia vaccine in November. I had antibody test for that recently. I scored well. So my new white cells work, once prompted. I’m now reviewing all my childhood illnesses and a lifetime of vaccinations with my GP and I’m going to get redone with boosters for everything that isn’t a live virus vaccination.

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It was quite revealing when at one of the briefings last week he spent quite a while explaining how the IOM's clinicians had debated whether to extend the period between doses, and it was a consensus

Who is talking about setting up in a cowshed?  There are plenty of nice, warm venues large enough to do this on the IOM without OTT adaptations.  

It is, it seems commendable the way it is working, but that does not detract from the fact it could have been done much cheaper and much quicker by using re useable equipment. It has cost 140k I under

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2 hours ago, Roger Mexico said:

Actually it wouldn't.  The antibodies that are produced by vaccination would be genetically different from those that were induced by a Covid-19 infection.  The real problem is that not everyone produces antibodies in the first place and even if they do they may not last for long.  Vaccines do this much more effectively which is why people should still have them, even if they have already had Covid.

Well that is the sort of help I was looking for. An indication anyway.

I don't want to go on about Abbotswood as it is an ongoing matter, but there is a significant chance that people I knew came to the Island from the continent to see a relative in January 2020. After a few days they felt shit. They felt even shitter going back home and on the ferry back to the continent as if they were going to die in their cabin.

Meanwhile, back on the Isle of Man, the Abbotswood resident became Covid positive (later died) and the people in the houshold felt shit (unusual persistent dry cough etc - you get the picture?).

But if they can be tested and found to have had Covid, then there is a possibility they infected people as above. The question is: would a vaccination compromise a test for possible previous infection.

Maybe it was 'just flu'. Maybe I am being "irrational" and talking fucking shit. Again. "As fucking usual".

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6 minutes ago, Barlow said:

Well that is the sort of help I was looking for. An indication anyway.

I don't want to go on about Abbotswood as it is an ongoing matter, but there is a significant chance that people I knew came to the Island from the continent to see a relative in January 2020. After a few days they felt shit. They felt even shitter going back home and on the ferry back to the continent as if they were going to die in their cabin.

Meanwhile, back on the Isle of Man, the Abbotswood resident became Covid positive (later died) and the people in the houshold felt shit (unusual persistent dry cough etc - you get the picture?).

But if they can be tested and found to have had Covid, then there is a possibility they infected people as above. The question is: would a vaccination compromise a test for possible previous infection.

Maybe it was 'just flu'. Maybe I am being "irrational" and talking fucking shit. Again. "As fucking usual".

Realistically, by now, there'd be no way to tell.

Antibody tests will show you up for about 6-8 months after infection at the most in the figures that used to come up.

Edited by AcousticallyChallenged
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4 hours ago, Happier diner said:

I thought they had specific staff to do this and it wasn't putting pressure on nursing staff.  Not necessarily true but I am sure Ashford said this. he said the only thing limiting progress was availability of vaccine.

I think that the vaccination hubs may have specific staff, but vaccinating people in their own homes is done by the Community Nurses, who also have all of their usual work to deal with.

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4 hours ago, Roger Mexico said:

You've rather missed my original point, which was there is a big gap between being 'housebound' and being able to spend most of the day taking two or three buses to get down to the Airport, hang around waiting to be vaccinated and then catch another two or three buses to get back.   That requires the sort of sustained energy that a lot of the elderly don't now have, not to mention the worry of trying to work out what the bus timetables mean and if they will actually appear. A lot simply won't feel up to the effort.

Of course if the Manx government had a fleet of minibuses they would be able to take such people door to door but unfortunately that's not possible.

You also missed my point that, while I accepted that there wasn't time to make a full assessment, by the same token the visiting vaccinators wouldn't know the true capabilities of those they judged to be mobile.  A best they can make an informed guess.

I actually suspect that the Community Nurses are really saying "These people are OK to get to their GPs - why can't they get vaccinated there, just like they are for flu?".   The honest answer would be that they don't want to pay them for it when they'd rather spend the money employing more managers, so they'll probably claim they have the wrong colour skirting boards.  And then issue a press release blaming the customers, just like every incompetently run business does.

 

I didn't miss your point, it is just a difference of opinion. You don't think that Community Nurses carrying out vaccinations are able to properly assess whether someone is housebound, or whether they could attend a vaccination hub, whereas I do. In fact, they are generally very understanding, and give their patients a considerable degree of latitude. If it has got to the point where they are reporting a problem, I suspect it is significant.

You suggest that the recent press release is more to do with either Community Nurses trying to avoid dealing with previously unidentified problems, or alternatively that it is to do with the government trying to avoid paying GP's. I don't believe that, and I think that the Community Nurses' reports should be taken at face value.

Not everything has to be a conspiracy. Sometimes things are what they seem to be. 

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1 hour ago, Barlow said:

Well that is the sort of help I was looking for. An indication anyway.

I don't want to go on about Abbotswood as it is an ongoing matter, but there is a significant chance that people I knew came to the Island from the continent to see a relative in January 2020. After a few days they felt shit. They felt even shitter going back home and on the ferry back to the continent as if they were going to die in their cabin.

Meanwhile, back on the Isle of Man, the Abbotswood resident became Covid positive (later died) and the people in the houshold felt shit (unusual persistent dry cough etc - you get the picture?).

But if they can be tested and found to have had Covid, then there is a possibility they infected people as above. The question is: would a vaccination compromise a test for possible previous infection.

Maybe it was 'just flu'. Maybe I am being "irrational" and talking fucking shit. Again. "As fucking usual".

Why are you worried about it?  Whether they or who introduced the virus is a matter for the investigating authorities and, if they did, it was likely completely unintended.  You just worry about what is best for you and your family - you will tie yourself up in knots and do yourself no good if you don't focus on what you can control. 

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6 hours ago, Roger Mexico said:

Actually it wouldn't.  The antibodies that are produced by vaccination would be genetically different from those that were induced by a Covid-19 infection.  The real problem is that not everyone produces antibodies in the first place and even if they do they may not last for long.  Vaccines do this much more effectively which is why people should still have them, even if they have already had Covid.

Unusually for you Roger this post shows a fundamental misunderstanding of antibodies. They’re proteins. They can’t be ‘genetically different’ from other antibodies. They will be different in their individual amino acid sequences, but apart from engineered monoclonal antibodies there will be a multitude of different antibodies. If a person is infected with covid they will generate thousands of different antibodies that react against various bits of the virus. If a person is vaccinated they will generate thousands of different antibodies that react to different parts of the spike protein. They’re all based on shape, and the binding end of the antibodies have a complementary fit to whatever they bind to. 
 

Testing for antibodies generally has a bit of whatever you’re looking for, you add serum (from blood), rinse it off, then add labeled antibodies to antibodies to see if any have stuck. They’re labeled with luminous molecules and the luminosity can be detected and measured. There’s no way of knowing, using these tests, whether antibodies to spike protein have come from infection or immunization. 

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3 hours ago, Newbie said:

Not everything has to be a conspiracy. Sometimes things are what they seem to be. 

I don't think anyone mentioned a conspiracy. What I do think though is that some patients could do with a lift possibly to the vaccination centre, maybe by relatives or carers. 

Making a big song and dance about it in the media by DA is not going to promote others to come forward is it. 

We were told there is enough staff to Cary out the vaccination programme. I took that to mean both in the vac centres and if necessary in people's homes if they could not get to a centre. If that is not correct then say so.

There are so many mixed messages coming from this Government I sometimes wonder myself what is the best thing to do.

Operational issues - Managers to deal with (there is enough of them). Strategy DA to deal with. 

So no, not a conspiracy, just an issue of clear messaging, good communication and treating people with respect.

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53 minutes ago, wrighty said:

Unusually for you Roger this post shows a fundamental misunderstanding of antibodies. They’re proteins. They can’t be ‘genetically different’ from other antibodies. They will be different in their individual amino acid sequences, but apart from engineered monoclonal antibodies there will be a multitude of different antibodies 

By 'genetically' I was meaning in their sequences and I assumed that this could be used to indicate some sort of history.  But this doesn't seem to be done, presumably because as you say, antibodies mutate so quickly that tracking the changes becomes impossible fast.

It doesn't change the advice to Barlow's neighbours of course.  There will be nothing in their bloodstreams that will help in working out what happened and the presence or absence of general Covid antibodies wouldn't prove anything either way and they shouldn't worry about anything being masked by vaccination.

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3 hours ago, Newbie said:

I didn't miss your point, it is just a difference of opinion. You don't think that Community Nurses carrying out vaccinations are able to properly assess whether someone is housebound, or whether they could attend a vaccination hub, whereas I do. In fact, they are generally very understanding, and give their patients a considerable degree of latitude. If it has got to the point where they are reporting a problem, I suspect it is significant.

You suggest that the recent press release is more to do with either Community Nurses trying to avoid dealing with previously unidentified problems, or alternatively that it is to do with the government trying to avoid paying GP's. I don't believe that, and I think that the Community Nurses' reports should be taken at face value.

Not everything has to be a conspiracy. Sometimes things are what they seem to be. 

I said the Community Nurses could only make an informed guess as to whether someone was housebound or not and that is clearly the case and I'm sure they would say so themselves.  Otherwise why make formal assessments of people's needs?  But my main point was that there's a big gap between not being housebound and being able to make a long and tiring journey by public transport to get somewhere at a fixed time and then get back.

In any case we know from the vaccination dashboard that up to date only 106 vaccinations have been given at home.  Even if every one of those people[1] only didn't go to the Airport because it would interfere with their preparations for climbing Everest, that wouldn't have made much impact on the workload.  And I suspect most actually were genuinely housebound and probably well known to their Community Nurses.  So to issue press releases suggesting that this is a terrible problem suggests  trying to exaggerate the situation to distract from other things.

I didn't say "Community Nurses [were] trying to avoid dealing with previously unidentified problems", but that their managers might.  In fact such a thing is often a unintended consequence of such universal exercises - not necessarily a bad one, but it has to be expected and extra resources found.  My comment about "it is to do with the government trying to avoid paying GP's" highlighted the contrast with the UK where two-thirds of vaccination centres are GP-led.  Here DHSC control-freakery seems to have stopped using such expertise and providing vaccination near people's homes.

 

[1] 89 were 80+, 16 65-79 and only one younger.

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2 hours ago, Roger Mexico said:

I said the Community Nurses could only make an informed guess as to whether someone was housebound or not and that is clearly the case and I'm sure they would say so themselves.  Otherwise why make formal assessments of people's needs?  But my main point was that there's a big gap between not being housebound and being able to make a long and tiring journey by public transport to get somewhere at a fixed time and then get back.

In any case we know from the vaccination dashboard that up to date only 106 vaccinations have been given at home.  Even if every one of those people[1] only didn't go to the Airport because it would interfere with their preparations for climbing Everest, that wouldn't have made much impact on the workload.  And I suspect most actually were genuinely housebound and probably well known to their Community Nurses.  So to issue press releases suggesting that this is a terrible problem suggests  trying to exaggerate the situation to distract from other things.

I didn't say "Community Nurses [were] trying to avoid dealing with previously unidentified problems", but that their managers might.  In fact such a thing is often a unintended consequence of such universal exercises - not necessarily a bad one, but it has to be expected and extra resources found.  My comment about "it is to do with the government trying to avoid paying GP's" highlighted the contrast with the UK where two-thirds of vaccination centres are GP-led.  Here DHSC control-freakery seems to have stopped using such expertise and providing vaccination near people's homes.

 

[1] 89 were 80+, 16 65-79 and only one younger.

As I said in an earlier post, I think we are going to have to agree to disagree. I don't think that I am going to change your view, and for my part, I will continue to put my faith in the frontline staff who are delivering the service, and who are best placed to judge.

You are right that the number of vaccinations is not that high when compared to the amount given in the hubs, but for the District Nurses, who have all of their normal daily work to do as well, it has a significant impact.

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2 hours ago, Roger Mexico said:

I said the Community Nurses could only make an informed guess as to whether someone was housebound or not and that is clearly the case and I'm sure they would say so themselves.  Otherwise why make formal assessments of people's needs?  But my main point was that there's a big gap between not being housebound and being able to make a long and tiring journey by public transport to get somewhere at a fixed time and then get back.

In any case we know from the vaccination dashboard that up to date only 106 vaccinations have been given at home.  Even if every one of those people[1] only didn't go to the Airport because it would interfere with their preparations for climbing Everest, that wouldn't have made much impact on the workload.  And I suspect most actually were genuinely housebound and probably well known to their Community Nurses.  So to issue press releases suggesting that this is a terrible problem suggests  trying to exaggerate the situation to distract from other things.

I didn't say "Community Nurses [were] trying to avoid dealing with previously unidentified problems", but that their managers might.  In fact such a thing is often a unintended consequence of such universal exercises - not necessarily a bad one, but it has to be expected and extra resources found.  My comment about "it is to do with the government trying to avoid paying GP's" highlighted the contrast with the UK where two-thirds of vaccination centres are GP-led.  Here DHSC control-freakery seems to have stopped using such expertise and providing vaccination near people's homes.

 

[1] 89 were 80+, 16 65-79 and only one younger.

Even if it is 20 out of 106 it's 20 people who should be doing as they were asked.  And of course that is 20 housebound people not getting dealt with in their homes because selfish mobile people don't want to make a bit of effort.

Further then you could break down those people and ask - is it really that arduous a journey?  Some probably don't live too far away.  Others no doubt could have got a lift.  But there will be a number of miserable old fuckers who think the world owes them something.

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8 minutes ago, quilp said:

Yes we know. It's old news and was mentioned a few pages back.

Another 'go to last post' poster whose only consideration is their own opinion and here-I-am haste... 

just chill out , you seem to get very upset easily so just ignore a post if you’ve already seen it. I posted it for information as just posted on 3fm this morning and I don’t express any opinion on post unlike you!!

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