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Vaccine- who will have it?


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1 hour ago, Gladys said:

I am in North Douglas, so will be watching the GE with interest.  If he gets back in, it will confirm that the general populace are either stupid or complacent.

I wonder if we had a party political system, whether that  would make resignation more likely.  The way things are, only HQ would put pressure on him to resign and that's not likely is it? 

In normal circumstances, 'national' issues take a poor second place behind constituency issues in determining whether an incumbent survives an election. The punters by and large don't give a flying one for Tynwald and Keys performance, but focus on the dog shit and street parking stuff...plus, possibly, what candidates have to say about the oldest of old chestnuts, health/education. Okay - there are the odd exceptions; it's said that donkeys years ago Terry Groves, when Environment Minister, lost his Ramsey seat due to his high-handed approach to the residents of the Foxdale area when proposing a landfill site at Archallagan.  Having said that, some of my Ramsey friends say that whilst his lordly approach to his Ministerial role didn't help, it was his 'I'm the great Terry Groves' act in Ramsey itself that did the damage. So as I say, elections are won and lost on the home patch, not as a 'national' performer.

This time it's a bit different because, more so than any previous 'national' issues I can think of, every one of us has been directly affected by Covid.  As a consequence, Quayle and Ashford in particular have deliberately put themselves in the spotlight. (As Roger Mexico and others have previously observed, there have been many occasions when medics/CS leaders/other involved participants should have been deployed to let us know what was happening, rather than the ego twins). So the Island's Covid performance will, essentially, be ascribed to them and will, I would suggest, influence voters thoughts in their respective constituencies to a greater degree than national events ever have before. However...I believe they will still ultimately fall or survive on how they are perceived to have 'delivered' for the constituency.

An interesting case study will be Anne Corlett. In all truth, I think I've only seen 2 or 3 media items about her in the 5 years she's been in Keys/Tynwald. And nothing for at least a year. She never seems to speak in Keys or Tynwald, I can't recall a single parliamentary question from her and she is, as a consequence, essentially invisible in terms of a national contribution. If she stands and wins again in September it will all be as a result of her local constituency performance. Of course, I'm not saying her approach is necessarily wrong. If her reluctance to put her head over the national parapet is because she believes she's out of her depth and hasn't ever risen above her earlier DBC level of operation, then well done for keeping quiet. Would that morons such as Callister and Moorhouse had followed suit.

As for bringing pressure to bear on poorly performing Ministers - including calls for resignations - yes, the influence of the Chief Minister is substantial, but holding government to account is a fundamental role of Tynwald which, during the life of this administration, the membership has signally failed to address, with a shocking degree of laxity. Never can I recall such a supine and compliant House of Keys as the third rate example delivered 5 years ago. We've been ill-served by parliament and the government since 2016; both are forgettable and have achieved nothing of note. I'm not confident much will change in September. And although you've already been challenged on the matter, your observation has merit; many voters are indeed both complacent and stupid (there's evidence by the ton on Facebook). I almost admire the honesty of (what was) Douglas East by not turning up to vote at all.

I'm sorry if this simply deepens your evident gloom, but the state of politics and those who practice it here at present is an absolute nadir. 

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Just now, forestboy said:

But we don’t have any 12 year old buses!!

We could buy some back off Blackpool...

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On 4/17/2021 at 2:17 PM, Uhtred said:

In normal circumstances, 'national' issues take a poor second place behind constituency issues in determining whether an incumbent survives an election. The punters by and large don't give a flying one for Tynwald and Keys performance, but focus on the dog shit and street parking stuff...plus, possibly, what candidates have to say about the oldest of old chestnuts, health/education. Okay - there are the odd exceptions; it's said that donkeys years ago Terry Groves, when Environment Minister, lost his Ramsey seat due to his high-handed approach to the residents of the Foxdale area when proposing a landfill site at Archallagan.  Having said that, some of my Ramsey friends say that whilst his lordly approach to his Ministerial role didn't help, it was his 'I'm the great Terry Groves' act in Ramsey itself that did the damage. So as I say, elections are won and lost on the home patch, not as a 'national' performer.

This time it's a bit different because, more so than any previous 'national' issues I can think of, every one of us has been directly affected by Covid.  As a consequence, Quayle and Ashford in particular have deliberately put themselves in the spotlight. (As Roger Mexico and others have previously observed, there have been many occasions when medics/CS leaders/other involved participants should have been deployed to let us know what was happening, rather than the ego twins). So the Island's Covid performance will, essentially, be ascribed to them and will, I would suggest, influence voters thoughts in their respective constituencies to a greater degree than national events ever have before. However...I believe they will still ultimately fall or survive on how they are perceived to have 'delivered' for the constituency.

An interesting case study will be Anne Corlett. In all truth, I think I've only seen 2 or 3 media items about her in the 5 years she's been in Keys/Tynwald. And nothing for at least a year. She never seems to speak in Keys or Tynwald, I can't recall a single parliamentary question from her and she is, as a consequence, essentially invisible in terms of a national contribution. If she stands and wins again in September it will all be as a result of her local constituency performance. Of course, I'm not saying her approach is necessarily wrong. If her reluctance to put her head over the national parapet is because she believes she's out of her depth and hasn't ever risen above her earlier DBC level of operation, then well done for keeping quiet. Would that morons such as Callister and Moorhouse had followed suit.

As for bringing pressure to bear on poorly performing Ministers - including calls for resignations - yes, the influence of the Chief Minister is substantial, but holding government to account is a fundamental role of Tynwald which, during the life of this administration, the membership has signally failed to address, with a shocking degree of laxity. Never can I recall such a supine and compliant House of Keys as the third rate example delivered 5 years ago. We've been ill-served by parliament and the government since 2016; both are forgettable and have achieved nothing of note. I'm not confident much will change in September. And although you've already been challenged on the matter, your observation has merit; many voters are indeed both complacent and stupid (there's evidence by the ton on Facebook). I almost admire the honesty of (what was) Douglas East by not turning up to vote at all.

I'm sorry if this simply deepens your evident gloom, but the state of politics and those who practice it here at present is an absolute nadir. 

Couldn’t agree more. This is why I anticipate that the Tynwald social affairs policy committee’s ‘review’ of the ’lockdown three’ will ultimately conclude that IOMG have done tremendously well, and government ministers and heads of government departments, including Public Health deserve to be rewarded, and therefore some suitable gongs are probably already headed their way...

Having said that, the Island is not alone in its reticence to hold our politicians and senior public servants to account. The UK is literally drowning in the sea of abysmal chumocracy, with David Cameron staring in the role of ‘Chief Chum’. The current enquiry into Cameron’s Greensill lobbying activities will probably fully exonerate him (“He has done nothing illegal”) with the small print saying that ‘lessons have been learnt’. This ‘let them get away with it’ behaviour by government committees is only possible because bad behaviour has been normalised. The public expects bad behaviour to happen i.e., behaviours that were once regarded as corruption are now considered to be legitimate pragmatism. In the nineties people were genuinely outraged by ‘Tory sleaze’. When shady dealings behind the closed doors (in the style of ‘Yes Minister’) were exposed, people demanded change. Unfortunately, the years of Labour governments that followed, essentially obliterated any remaining public trust in politicians of all stripes. Now, when people hear about politicians’ ‘indiscretions’, they either do not care (I mean, they elected Bo Jo who had already committed a book of indiscretions and everybody knew about them), or think “if I was in their position, I would be doing the same thing. Being in power is a great opportunity to be able to fill up my boots.” 

Corrupt democracies are always open to abuse and are in danger of becoming hostages to oligarchs, kleptocrats, extremists, radicals and indeed one’s school and university chums. All of this corruption goes on silently behind the scenes. By the time ordinary citizens become aware of it, it is simply too late.  As entertaining as it may be to watch bent cops in TV shows like Line of Duty and Between the Lines, it is bent politicians and dodgy public servants that are the really toxic corrosive poisonous mix which is destroying Western societies from within.

The talks about British democracy being up for sale (e.g., to members of various murderous regimes or to members of the Chinese Communist Party or to former Soviet apparatchiks, etc) are not funny and they are certainly not new. What is new is the general public acceptance of these behaviours as acceptable, and not as unacceptable aberrations. By accepting corrupt behaviours as normal, democracies are collectively wandering unknowingly towards a proverbial precipice with unprecedented consequences. The most likely outcome of this direction of travel is that democracy will be replaced by unaccountable top-down authoritarians.

I apologise for my much too long reply, but my point is that Tynwald will do nothing to improve its transparency and accountability without pressure coming from the UK. Under Bo Jo this is highly unlikely.

As far as the IOM GE is concerned, I think that people must vote for change. Somebody mentioned that about 10% of the Island’s population are transient entrepreneurs who are here for low taxes. This may well be true, but increasingly the average age of our population is getting older, and the older people become the more afraid they become of change. There is a dearth of young progressive people here who would be willing to embrace change. Nonetheless, those young people who have progressive views, still need to make their voices heard. Unless they do, I suspect that the GE will through up much more of the unaccountable same. 

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24 minutes ago, code99 said:

Couldn’t agree more. This is why I anticipate that the Tynwald social affairs policy committee’s ‘review’ of the ’lockdown three’ will ultimately conclude that IOMG have done tremendously well, and government ministers and heads of government departments, including Public Health deserve to be rewarded, and therefore some suitable gongs are probably already headed their way...

Having said that, the Island is not alone in its reticence to hold our politicians and senior public servants to account. The UK is literally drowning in the sea of abysmal chumocracy, with David Cameron staring in the role of ‘Chief Chum’. The current enquiry into Cameron’s Greensill lobbying activities will probably fully exonerate him (“He has done nothing illegal”) with the small print saying that ‘lessons have been learnt’. This ‘let them get away with it’ behaviour by government committees is only possible because bad behaviour has been normalised. The public expects bad behaviour to happen i.e., behaviours that were once regarded as corruption are now considered to be legitimate pragmatism. In the nineties people were genuinely outraged by ‘Tory sleaze’. When shady dealings behind the closed doors (in the style of ‘Yes Minister’) were exposed, people demanded change. Unfortunately, the years of Labour governments that followed, essentially obliterated any remaining public trust in politicians of all stripes. Now, when people hear about politicians’ ‘indiscretions’, they either do not care (I mean, they elected Bo Jo who had already committed a book of indiscretions and everybody knew about them), or think “if I was in their position, I would be doing the same thing. Being in power is a great opportunity to be able to fill up my boots.” 

Corrupt democracies are always open to abuse and are in danger of becoming hostages to oligarchs, kleptocrats, extremists, radicals and indeed one’s school and university chums. All of this corruption goes on silently behind the scenes. By the time ordinary citizens become aware of it, it is simply too late.  As entertaining as it may be to watch bent cops in TV shows like Line of Duty and Between the Lines, it is bent politicians and dodgy public servants that are the really toxic corrosive poisonous mix which is destroying Western societies from within.

The talks about British democracy being up for sale (e.g., to members of various murderous regimes or to members of the Chinese Communist Party or to former Soviet apparatchiks, etc) are not funny and they are certainly not new. What is new is the general public acceptance of these behaviours as acceptable, and not as unacceptable aberrations. By accepting corrupt behaviours as normal, democracies are collectively wandering unknowingly towards a proverbial precipice with unprecedented consequences. The most likely outcome of this direction of travel is that democracy will be replaced by unaccountable top-down authoritarians.

I apologise for my much too long reply, but my point is that Tynwald will do nothing to improve its transparency and accountability without pressure coming from the UK. Under Bo Jo this is highly unlikely.

As far as the IOM GE is concerned, I think that people must vote for change. Somebody mentioned that about 10% of the Island’s population are transient entrepreneurs who are here for low taxes. This may well be true, but increasingly the average age of our population is getting older, and the older people become the more afraid they become of change. There is a dearth of young progressive people here who would be willing to embrace change. Nonetheless, those young people who have progressive views, still need to make their voices heard. Unless they do, I suspect that the GE will through up much more of the unaccountable same. 

Not an overly long answer at all...accurate, eloquent and, sadly, devastatingly accurate. I share your view that September will bring little change and simply embolden  clowns like Callister and Moorhouse if re-elected.

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Interesting dynamic / conversations on return to workplace regarding Vaccinations - couple of people who are refusing to have the vaccine for a couple of reasons none of which IMHO are valid.

1 - I'm not planning on going on holiday so I don't need to have it

2 - It isn't proven and I looked it up on Google.

Conversation around Social responsibility to others etc etc was just blanked by both - one of these individuals is so afraid of the virus that they are constantly wiping down shared equipment such as kettle, door handles, staying 2 metres away and is still wearing a mask.

Other one was shocked when asked the question of "If you contracted Covid and had 3 weeks off work despite refusing the vaccination would you expect to be paid ?"

I understand free choice and free will - but with no underlying health conditions to prevent having the vaccine I think it is a selfish position to take.

Anyone else had similar with colleagues - conversations that you couldn't ever pre-empt  regarding the virus ?

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1 hour ago, Mr Helmut Fromage said:

I understand free choice and free will - but with no underlying health conditions to prevent having the vaccine I think it is a selfish position to take.

Totally agree that declining to have the vaccine when there are no underlying conditions which make it contraindicated is selfish - extremely so. It might be understandable only if there were a charge some people couldn't afford, but thankfully we don't have that problem.

There's simply no excuse when it's not contraindicated and therefore out of the person's control. 

I work with only one other person and we're on the same page regarding vaccines. Unfortunately we deal face-to-face with the public and I'd probably lose my job if I were to start questioning them, because if I discovered anti-vaxxers amongst them, I'd go off on one. 

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@Zarley That raises a fundamental question as to where or not people can apply to work for government or if they have not had the vaccination.

More importantly it may become a condition of employment, in which case people will have to either demonstate they have had what is required for the position or give HR access to their GP to enquire or check.

The other issues raised in this thread note the importance of having a mobile phone with the NHS app on it. What if people do not want to carry round personal health information around with them, or lose the phone, or have it stolen. 

Or can someone say they have not been vaccinated and say it is due to underlying health conditions but still have too 'prove' it somehow.

Complex it is.

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