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Consultation on e-bikes and e-scooters


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Are these 'scooters' gyroscopably stable, the few that I have seen seem to be pretty wobbly! Especially at low speeds?

They should definitely be taxed and insured, I don't want to wait 10 years for 'him' to pay for ripping my brake lines out as I run over him!!!

More seriously, has the recent Fad for cycle use/ownership resulted in higher accident rates? A few years ago there seemed to be a Fad for 'Yoofs' to be riding on Vespa  type scooters, with noisy exhausts at 8000 RPMs who seemed not to obey the normal road use manners, are these new fangled machines not just another fad which will just as quickly fade away? Should we alter our road use for a passing fashion???

As for CBT, at least they don't have crossbars!!!!

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For my two-penneth worth, I've never ridden a motorbike (terrified pillion a few times) and pushbikes only up until I learned to drive. The thing I find mystifying about the obsession with 'active tra

They seem to always have a "we live in a sunny, big city" type mentality when making up these policies. We have very narrow roads built (and currently maintained to the standard) for carrying horse an

Cambon is correct, lots of people have been put off less damaging transport than cars, by rules and regulations. For instance the requirement here to do repeated CBT to ride a moped or tiny motorcycle

For my two-penneth worth, I've never ridden a motorbike (terrified pillion a few times) and pushbikes only up until I learned to drive. The thing I find mystifying about the obsession with 'active travel' is two-fold. 

1) Even on an average day weather is so changeable and more often than not treacherous here because of wind, lashing rain or just really bad visibility. Not to mention potholes, drainage grates,wet leaves, HGV's and plants in the gutter on rural roads. So on those days, when it is unsafe or impractical to walk or ride any sort of distance and still leave your car at home, what is the alternative? Certainly not public transport from the one or two times I've tried to do anything because my car was in the garage. Spend half an hour waiting for a bus once you've decyphered the timetable (Schooldays, Non-schoold days, Days with a 'i' in them) to find it goes nowhere near where you expected to.

2) We have an aging population who, to be frank I'm getting there myself, wouldn't relish the idea of any sort of accident on two wheels (not that type of accident ! ~ incompotent not incontinent) as falling over loses it's appeal fast over a certain age and often ends at A&E or at least some Jackson Pollock bruises. Not to mention trying to balance your Tesco shop or the wife on the handle bars.

I love the island but I did live and work in the south of england for a few years and saw one or two ideas that, in a scaled down form, could work here. God forbid.

Park and ride works well when it is done properly and not some half-arsed excuse to tarmac summerland and justify the pulrose bride car park. The car parks need to be on the edge of town, otherwise how do they ease congestion, using Oxford as an example. They had 4 car parks N,S, E & W on the fringe of town. Parking and bus tickets were combined, IIRC, and they had a hop on and off system. One set of buses went N to S and the one went E to W . 

At each carpark a bus would be waiting and you simply boarded it and waited for the next bus to arrive back, where the bus would go and the newly arrived bus would empty and sit and wait its turn. So with a few minutes wait sitting on the bus you'd depart and as you headed to the town centre, you could jump off at any point and get back on again later.

When you were done shopping, just get the bnext passing bus in the right direction. Only buses were permitted to cross the town centre, private cars had to park on the edge of the city centre which was at a premium. Though I'm sure disabled parking was free.

The beauty was, and we have plenty of vehicles here to do it, you could be flexible by adding more buses as demand increased in the week or the day.  You didn't need to memorise times or even numbers just the car park you used, which was on your ticket. And the car parks were really only for park and ride as I recall and had decent lighting and security.

Best of all it is win-win because better public transport leads to fewer cars in the town centre so cycling and walking there becomes more appealing and safer.   

Sadly, until we see our MHK's and other government employees leading by example, I think it is the sort of ill-planned, vanity, greenwashing projects we seem to excel at over here. Worse still when we ignore such simple solutions like white lines, standard recognisable (highway code) road markings and appropriate signs and plum for bespoke, celtic, granite shared spaces.   

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We have tried 'Park n Ride' but our problem is that the distance between the Park is of little consequence to further distance to yyour place of work? Why bother with that change over to go a further mile?

Car usage is not going to reduce in our life time, perhaps an electric scooter, plucked from your boot to do the final mile would be a solution but not in our life Jim!

......but then, an electric scooter is going to open up a whole new problem of 'Road Usage' to us dyed in the petrol propulsion way of our life????

It will happen but not in our life Jim!

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I can see the headlines now.... "Electric vehicles ~ the silent killer".  I had a near miss with an electric scooter once when walking the back streets in a Greek town. I was so used to hearing little petrol scooters in good time (and with an idea of where they were coming from, at least enough to step to the right side) that it, the electric scooter, took me by complete surprise.  

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1 hour ago, CallMeCurious said:

For my two-penneth worth, I've never ridden a motorbike (terrified pillion a few times) and pushbikes only up until I learned to drive. The thing I find mystifying about the obsession with 'active travel' is two-fold. 

1) Even on an average day weather is so changeable and more often than not treacherous here because of wind, lashing rain or just really bad visibility. Not to mention potholes, drainage grates,wet leaves, HGV's and plants in the gutter on rural roads. So on those days, when it is unsafe or impractical to walk or ride any sort of distance and still leave your car at home, what is the alternative? Certainly not public transport from the one or two times I've tried to do anything because my car was in the garage. Spend half an hour waiting for a bus once you've decyphered the timetable (Schooldays, Non-schoold days, Days with a 'i' in them) to find it goes nowhere near where you expected to.

I've commuted year round on a motorcycle living here and in England for a while. There's a lot to be said for modern waterproofs. And filtering past traffic could easily cut my commute by 75% with badly managed roadworks. I've even commuted before on a 50cc pedal and pop. You get odd looks on those though.

You have to remember, the perfect use case for these sorts of scooters etc. is for people who commute locally, not over huge distances. Take the people that live on the edges of Douglas. It's a 5 minute drive, which seems silly to pay for a parking space for, fuel etc. every day. But, a 40 minute each way walk is a significant time investment. 10 minutes on a scooter is the best of both worlds there. You don't sit in traffic, you get some fresh air and it's cheap to run. You might still take the car in winter or on bad days, I certainly do.

For reference, by electric scooter, I mean the kick scooters with a throttle, not the moped style. They're currently illegal in any guise off of private land without a full registration the same as any other licensed road vehicle. That's what they're looking at changing, along with allowing e-bikes to make a bit more power from the motor assist. They'd still be legally capped to 15.5mph

I don't think anyone is trying to take cars away from people who need them, but currently, short of buying a very expensive pedal assist electric bicycle, your options for legal electrically assisted transport are very limited. Bear in mind pedal assist bicycles start at around £1000, and the better ones are 2-3x that. The scooters on the other hand can be had brand new for around £300.

 

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16 minutes ago, AcousticallyChallenged said:

I've commuted year round on a motorcycle living here and in England for a while. There's a lot to be said for modern waterproofs. And filtering past traffic could easily cut my commute by 75% with badly managed roadworks. I've even commuted before on a 50cc pedal and pop. You get odd looks on those though.

You have to remember, the perfect use case for these sorts of scooters etc. is for people who commute locally, not over huge distances. Take the people that live on the edges of Douglas. It's a 5 minute drive, which seems silly to pay for a parking space for, fuel etc. every day. But, a 40 minute each way walk is a significant time investment. 10 minutes on a scooter is the best of both worlds there. You don't sit in traffic, you get some fresh air and it's cheap to run. You might still take the car in winter or on bad days, I certainly do.

For reference, by electric scooter, I mean the kick scooters with a throttle, not the moped style. They're currently illegal in any guise off of private land without a full registration the same as any other licensed road vehicle. That's what they're looking at changing, along with allowing e-bikes to make a bit more power from the motor assist. They'd still be legally capped to 15.5mph

I don't think anyone is trying to take cars away from people who need them, but currently, short of buying a very expensive pedal assist electric bicycle, your options for legal electrically assisted transport are very limited. Bear in mind pedal assist bicycles start at around £1000, and the better ones are 2-3x that. The scooters on the other hand can be had brand new for around £300.

 

You're consistently posting sensible comments. That's not very ManxForums.

Add to that the cost of e-bikes will fall. But more to the point is the speed - reduced journey time - fresh air - fun - fitness - happiness - save money - powered-by-belly-fat-not-petrol stuff. Stop off on the way for a pint / coffee / nip-in-to-shop without parking hassle stuff. Bicycles win for so many journeys. Obviously if your commute is from Cregneish / Ramsey, that's probably not the case, but for those closer in it's an easy win.

Warning. It hurts a bit at first. Oh and you may need a coat, sometimes. If you don't know when you might need a coat, ask a grown-up.

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1 hour ago, AcousticallyChallenged said:

Bear in mind pedal assist bicycles start at around £1000, and the better ones are 2-3x that. The scooters on the other hand can be had brand new for around £300.

........ and that could be part of the future problem? The easily available price of the medium could lead to a plethora of scooters and, more pertinently, scooter riders that are inventing their own road rules and abuse of the normal rules that make them a danger to their selves and other road users, whether thru unfamiliarity with their behaviour, having foisted their selves  in sudden numbers that have not allowed for car drivers to react to their behaviour?

The precedent for this is to compare the behaviour of 'car drivers' with their behaviour as 'pedestrians', totally different expectations?

A cyclist is a familiar sight, we recognise them, we allow for their occasional stupid maneuvere,  streaming down the  nearside at lights, a stand up scooter rider just looks like an eejit   in the roadway, mow 'em down!!!

OK, allow for them but at a 300 quid entry there may be too many too soon to allow for car driver reaction to their different behaviour?

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1 hour ago, Yibble said:

You're consistently posting sensible comments. That's not very ManxForums.

Add to that the cost of e-bikes will fall. But more to the point is the speed - reduced journey time - fresh air - fun - fitness - happiness - save money - powered-by-belly-fat-not-petrol stuff. Stop off on the way for a pint / coffee / nip-in-to-shop without parking hassle stuff. Bicycles win for so many journeys. Obviously if your commute is from Cregneish / Ramsey, that's probably not the case, but for those closer in it's an easy win.

Warning. It hurts a bit at first. Oh and you may need a coat, sometimes. If you don't know when you might need a coat, ask a grown-up.

That is part of the problem. That is why they need to be registered, even if registration is free. It I said about accountability. 

Many home insurance policies actually state third party cover, which includes damage you do to others whilst cycle riding. However, it does not cover motor assisted cycles, including E bikes. As for E scooters, forget it! 

There needs to be accountability in the case of accident. And, no, you should not be stopping for a couple of pints on the way home. An E bike is very heavy compared to a normal bicycle. Extra weight, extra vigilance, extra danger, extra responsibility.

It is a no brainer! 

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7 hours ago, Cambon said:

And, no, you should not be stopping for a couple of pints on the way home. An E bike is very heavy compared to a normal bicycle. Extra weight, extra vigilance, extra danger, extra responsibility.

It is a no brainer! 

Not to mention that it's illegal to ride even a push-bike while over the limit. I watched someone I know get done for this*, and I've heard of a couple others. 

*it was quite the scene too. She ended up over the bonnet of the cop car with an arm twisted halfway up her back. She's five-foot-f%ck-all and a bit of a scrapper. She's grown up a bit since then, thankfully.

No coppers or members of the public were harmed in the making of this post. (Aside from harm to one participant's bank balance.)

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5 minutes ago, Zarley said:

Not to mention that it's illegal to ride even a push-bike while over the limit. I watched someone I know get done for this*, and I've heard of a couple others. 

In the UK at least, there is no hard limit. You can be fined for cycling whilst unfit through drink and drugs but that’s about the harshest punishment. I believe the law is similar here. 

Obviously, harsher penalties if you do something silly, but that’s when it comes into dangerous cycling etc. 
 

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8 hours ago, Cambon said:

That is part of the problem. That is why they need to be registered, even if registration is free. It I said about accountability. 

Many home insurance policies actually state third party cover, which includes damage you do to others whilst cycle riding. However, it does not cover motor assisted cycles, including E bikes. As for E scooters, forget it! 

There needs to be accountability in the case of accident. And, no, you should not be stopping for a couple of pints on the way home. An E bike is very heavy compared to a normal bicycle. Extra weight, extra vigilance, extra danger, extra responsibility.

It is a no brainer! 

The problem is the cost of doing that, and how you enable and enforce it. In theory, you could make it something like the UK drone license, where you have to do a small theory test before you’re issued with your identifier. If you’re stopped on an e-bike or e-scooter, it could be expected you have one. The problem is, the cost of implementing that at the DoI for such a small number of people. 
 

Nothing exists for e-scooters yet because they aren’t yet easily allowed on the roads. 
 

Though, the weight argument might be trickier when you consider that the difference is around 10kg between an e-bike and normal bike. There is an overlap between the two too. The scooters are only about 10kg on the other hand. 

I’d be much more alarmed by a 110kg person crashing into me on a regular bike than someone 70kg on an e-bike as a result. 

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8 hours ago, Cambon said:

And, no, you should not be stopping for a couple of pints on the way home.

To be fair, I did suggest a (singular) pint.

59 minutes ago, Zarley said:

Not to mention that it's illegal to ride even a push-bike while over the limit.

No it isn't*.  It is certainly an offence to cycle on a road or other public place whilst unfit to ride through drink or drugs (RTA 1985, s13). However the 'Prescribed limits' (s 7E) apply to 'mechanically propelled vehicles', which pedal cycles are not considered to be (but e-bikes may be. I don't know). As with various road traffic legislation, the law quite sensibly recognises that there's a big difference between pedal cycles that travel at (say) 15 mph and one-tonne-ish+ metal motor vehicles that can travel at 70mph+.

*My understanding. I'm happy to be corrected if someone can cite to the contrary.

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