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30 minutes ago, Chinahand said:

Manxman1980 seems to have strongly drunk the coolaid in this one; and I am a bit at a loss how to respond to him.  He seems all in favour of the inherited sin of racism and is quite happy to use who someone's father was, or to interpret their actions in the most crass way possible, to condemn them of one of the worst social crimes our society has.

I haven't yet watched the video you linked to but I will.

If you read my earlier posts you will note that I set aside the Monarchy's link to the slave trade and the implications of the empire.  I believe historical context is important but I do not believe in "the inherited sin of racism".  

I gave examples of cases where specific members of the Royal Family were accused of racism.

30 minutes ago, Chinahand said:

Let's just take the example of Princess Michael of Kent.  Now I have no idea of this woman's personal opinions and I am highly doubtful anyone else reading this does either.  But there is no doubt if the revolution came and a struggle session was demanded we know what the mob would do with her and Manxman1980 clearly agrees with this mob.

I have no personal views on her either.  There are news reports about her and alleged racist views and comment.  It is these I have cited.

 

30 minutes ago, Chinahand said:

Princess Michael of Kent wore a broach - a racist broach says Manxman1980. Erm, I thought.  What makes a broach racist?  So I investigated.  A broach from Venice, respectfully and proudly portraying the reality that moors captured initially as slaves were freed, became prominent members of Venetian society and founded dynasties of trading princes amassing untold wealth.  Is it wrong to celebrate the reality of this?

Genuinely what makes this broach racist?

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Is the simple portrayal of a black person racist?  Is it meant to make it more or less racist that the black person is portrayed as successful and wealthy?

Is it racist of Venice to be proud of these Black Princes, and over hundreds of years continue to make beautiful and expensive art portraying their success?

A beautiful and expensive work of art showing a person, the offspring of slaves, who has through their own efforts become a prince and symbol of success in what was then one of the world's most successful trading cities.  This is racist is it?

Oh goodness.  What a mess our society is making of race.

You cannot state this broach is racist without adding to it motives that do 

You had to research the history of that broach in some detail to come up with that answer.

Would someone who was at that banquet be expected to know all that?

30 minutes ago, Chinahand said:

It is a fait accompli and of course her dad was a Nazi.

I have no idea her father is.

I work in a field where I have to investigate alleged "isms".  The key point about all of them is that it is how the person on the receiving end felt rather than the intent of the alleged.  That does perhaps affect my view on this topic.

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Yes, it’s definitely David Beckham’s fault. Harry came from a normal down to earth family with no delusions of status, importance, or deserving respect.  

He said what we’re all thinking. “Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government”

The whole thing is bollocks from start to finish. A fully produced and scripted interview with each line crafted for effect by Hollywood P.R. agents and lawyers; all directed, choreographed, costumed,

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34 minutes ago, Chinahand said:I do want to take a short diversion to discuss why did they choose Oprah to choreograph the circus?  - she hasn't been a chat show host in nearly a generation.  That isn't the reason.  Now, she's a producer, a backroom fixer and deal maker who knows exactly how to contract every last cent out a deal.  One thing you can't say about the Sussexes is that they aren't savvy in their media contacts.

I believe this was covered in the interview I can’t remember the exact reason but it was about Oprah being a nearby neighbour and I expect on hearing the issues she probably offered the interview opportunity? Oprah herself seemed pretty shocked at some of the replies, it didn’t seem all that scripted. If you mean did they purposely choose Oprah based on her skin tone to push a possible racial issue? I’m not sure, but it seems unlikely, I don’t think Oprah would let herself be used in that way.

At the risk of sounding ‘racist’, Meghan doesn’t even have that much of a dark skin tone to me, I wouldn’t even look at her and think of her as ‘black’ , but perhaps that’s just me.

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2 hours ago, manxman1980 said:

I haven't yet watched the video you linked to but I will.

If you read my earlier posts you will note that I set aside the Monarchy's link to the slave trade and the implications of the empire.  I believe historical context is important but I do not believe in "the inherited sin of racism".  

I gave examples of cases where specific members of the Royal Family were accused of racism.

I have no personal views on her either.  There are news reports about her and alleged racist views and comment.  It is these I have cited.

 

You had to research the history of that broach in some detail to come up with that answer.

Would someone who was at that banquet be expected to know all that?

I have no idea her father is.

I work in a field where I have to investigate alleged "isms".  The key point about all of them is that it is how the person on the receiving end felt rather than the intent of the alleged.  That does perhaps affect my view on this topic.

It's very difficult now to discuss race issues without crossing some sort of invisible line at some point, the video does express this concern.

I'm not sure that the monarchy were directly involved in slavery, I may be wrong? Certainly the vast majority of people in Britain weren't either and there was a strong lobby to end it. 

I was aware of the Blackamoor history as I too looked it up at the time. The answer to people jumping to the wrong conclusion should be the BLM call of 'educate yourself' before opening your mouth! Not you Manxman btw :) 

I think that the big problem, as you say, is that it is feelings rather than intent. It's difficult to quantify feelings as they are personal. Some people are searching for infractions, whether their feelings are hurt or not, they will jump at the chance to express disgust or worse.

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15 hours ago, Shake me up Judy said:

Just what is it you do Manxman1980 ? What sort of a job investigates 'isms' ? 

I'll bet he's a fully paid up member of the green party

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I don't think it would have been a open racist comment, it mite and I say mite just have been  a very badly worded and very  badly ill judged ill timed  comment that should have been dealt with by Harry if he was informed of it at the time. Just my opinion. 

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Missed a word.
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On 3/13/2021 at 6:17 PM, Shake me up Judy said:

Just what is it you do Manxman1980 ? What sort of a job investigates 'isms' ? 

As has been said I work in HR and deal with Employment Law.  In this context it would be the Equality Act 2017 (on the IOM at least) and particularly the sections relating to discrimination.  In employment law there are a few different types of behaviour that I would look at in an investigation;

1. Direct Discrimination - Bit of an obvious one.  This is treating someone less favourably because of a "protected characteristic (e.g. race).  There are two sub sections to this though which are direct discrimination by perception (an employer mistakenly thinks that someone has a protected characteristic) and direct discrimination by association (the worker associates with someone who has a protected characteristic).

2. Indirect Discrimination - This is the application of a criterion or practice which puts people who share a particular characteristic at a disadvantage.  An example may be advertising a role and requiring 10 years experience.  This could indirectly discriminate against younger workers who may have all the skills necessary but cannot fulfil the experience requirement.

I have not seen much direct discrimination in the workplace, however, I have had to challenge people on indirect discrimination at times.  The more difficult cases involve the following;

3. Harassment - "engaging in unwanted conduct to do with a protected characteristic which has the purpose or effect of violating a person's dignity or creating an intimidating, degrading, humiliating or offensive environment".  English v Thomas Sanderson Blinds Ltd 2009 is a good example of this in practice.  The Tribunal decided that homophobic banter can be unlawful harassment even when directed at an employee who is neither gay nor believed to be gay.  That perhaps help illustrate what I mean when I say that it is not the intent that matters but how the recipient feels.  

4. Victimisation - subjecting a person to a detriment because they brought a complaint, gave evidence in relation to a complaint or made an allegation that someone broke the law.  The way Meghan and Harry are being treated by the media would be a good example of this.

The other consideration is more challenging as there is actually no legislation associated with it and that is bullying.  It can sometimes be linked with harassment but other times may just be someone abusing a position of power or making someone's life hard because they just don't like them.

So, yes my views on this topic are probably skewed by my experiences in the workplace.  If I take it back to the coverage of Harry & Meghan then there are a couple of things that jump out;

- Allegations have been made by staff of the Royal Household that they were bullied by Meghan and that these claims were not investigated at the time.  In fact, they were allegedly covered up in order to protect Meghan.  If that is the case then I am surprised that the HR team did not take matters more seriously.  Of course they cannot discipline Meghan as she is not an employee or worker but they still have a duty of care towards those who are employed by the Royal Household.  

- Obviously employment law does not apply to the members of the Royal Family but the allegations and counter-allegations remind me of numerous cases of bullying and harassment that I have dealt with.  In my experience people start to speak out only when things have got really bad and people have become entrenched in their positions.  Once you start investigating and looking for the cause it is surprising how often it was the result of a throw away comment or misunderstanding between two people.  Essentially no one intended any harm but for whatever reason the recipient was negatively affected and that impacted on the relationship after that.  This is what I suspect has happened in the case of Harry and Meghan.  There is probably not one incident of any significance (maybe the comment about the colour of the baby) but much more likely it has been many smaller incidents that have gradually built up.

 

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6 hours ago, doc.fixit said:

where's his mask? (I just can't stand the royal family/firm. It has no place in modern society IMO.)

He doesn’t appear to be breathing so probably irrelevant ;)

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