Greenies won't like this

[Happier diner]

50 minutes ago, ellanvannin2010 said:

Maybe the construction industry did not want it just as they do not really want brown field sites.

Communal ground source heating would be a much neater solution for urban housing. Air source has a long way to go to be much use in old housing stock

Yes but we are talking about new housing stock. Forcing developers to insulate houses to a high standard and fitting air sourced heat pump boilers. 

[ellanvannin2010]

8 minutes ago, Happier diner said:

Yes but we are talking about new housing stock. Forcing developers to insulate houses to a high standard and fitting air sourced heat pump boilers. 

Yes but new housing stock would be better built with ground source heating, especially if on an estate.

Ground source is more efficient and works much better than air source when it is cold (which is when you want the heating)

Edited October 6, 2021 by ellanvannin2010

[Ham_N_Eggs]

8 minutes ago, Happier diner said:

air sourced heat pump boilers. 

They're not boilers.

 

2 minutes ago, ellanvannin2010 said:

Yes but new housing stock would be better built with ground source heating, especially if on an estate.

Ground source is more efficient and works much better than air source when it is cold (which is when you want the heating)

Indeed, community heating via borehole ground source is what all new estates should have as standard. 

[Happier diner]

13 hours ago, Ham_N_Eggs said:

They're not boilers.

 

Indeed, community heating via borehole ground source is what all new estates should have as standard. 

Well technically they are not boilers I guess, but I was using the term to distinguish between central heating (hot water systems) and free standing air blown heat pumps.

As far as I am aware the Isle of Man climate is perfectly fine for air source heat pumps and there is no need whatsoever for the extra cost of burying pipes in the ground. Why do you thing ground source heat pumps work better? The ratio is the same in our climate. Yes if you lived in Scandinavia, central Europe or America I would agree, but in a temperate climate their is plenty of latent heat in that warm air that wafts off the Atlantic. 

[TomTucker]

in movies where miners are stuck underground and they are all sweating, thats the heat source.

Once you get a few metres down you get to a point where the temp of the ground is equivalent to the average air temperature for the region. So probably about 12deg for us! 

i assume some bit of kit on the ground pumps fluid through the system and extracts this latent heat and multiplies the 12deg to a level that means you can have a bath without freezing.

You need 100m of distance so zigzags, loops around your house or 100m up and down. 

[Happier diner]

3 hours ago, TomTucker said:

in movies where miners are stuck underground and they are all sweating, thats the heat source.

Once you get a few metres down you get to a point where the temp of the ground is equivalent to the average air temperature for the region. So probably about 12deg for us! 

i assume some bit of kit on the ground pumps fluid through the system and extracts this latent heat and multiplies the 12deg to a level that means you can have a bath without freezing.

You need 100m of distance so zigzags, loops around your house or 100m up and down. 

Correct. But Geothermal heat extraction is a different thing altogether to heat pumps. You have to go down about 20m here on the Isle of Man to pick up geothermal heat. I saw a working setup in Northern Ireland. He was 12m down. The system actually pumped water down at normal ambient temperature and it came up at about 30 degrees. That ran through a hear exchanger putting pre heat into his heating boiler.

It worked, but it was a challenge more than a cost effective solution. I think payback was about 25 years.

Like I said previously, you don't need this temperature to get latent heat from the air. Its fine as it is. Remember the boiling point of the refrigerant is around -30 degrees. Our air is effectively red hot, relatively speaking)

[CallMeCurious]

On 10/6/2021 at 6:40 PM, Happier diner said:

Yes but we are talking about new housing stock. Forcing developers to insulate houses to a high standard and fitting air sourced heat pump boilers. 

 

18 hours ago, Happier diner said:

Correct. But Geothermal heat extraction is a different thing altogether to heat pumps. You have to go down about 20m here on the Isle of Man to pick up geothermal heat. I saw a working setup in Northern Ireland. He was 12m down. The system actually pumped water down at normal ambient temperature and it came up at about 30 degrees. That ran through a hear exchanger putting pre heat into his heating boiler.

It worked, but it was a challenge more than a cost effective solution. I think payback was about 25 years.

Like I said previously, you don't need this temperature to get latent heat from the air. Its fine as it is. Remember the boiling point of the refrigerant is around -30 degrees. Our air is effectively red hot, relatively speaking)

The biggest different with ground source, if done right, is it acts as a heat/cool store. So in summer when you run it to cooling you actually reverse the effect pumping heat into the ground which slowly diffuses out. In winter, you reverse the flow (a la Ghostbusters) and extract that stored heat along with geothermal energy and conducted solar gain from surface.

One reason why the deeper you go the more energy you get for 'free' is literally the cooling of earths core and nuclear reactions releases about 80 mW/m2 24/7. Whereas solar is on average 100W/m2 over a year (peaks at 1000W/m2 mid summer on a good day).

However, geothermal energy is constant year round and does not fluctuate with weather or time of day. A good few years ago I was in Sweden and discussing heating with a local and they told me how even small properties used bore holes to 50m deep in rock drilled in early spring so they could get a full summers worth of heat storage prior to the winter. Sort a thermal battery.

A lot depends on ground compostion but in terms of footprint, maintenance and recycling energy it is hard to beat a borehole. They put one in ast Ramsey Lifeboat station so it'd be interesting to know how they get on with it.

 

 

[hissingsid]

There was a report saying that to make any of this stuff work you have to pay fortunes to make your house totally insulated.  Practical on new builds perhaps.

[Ramseyboi]

6 hours ago, hissingsid said:

There was a report saying that to make any of this stuff work you have to pay fortunes to make your house totally insulated.  Practical on new builds perhaps.

Are these the same new builds that everyone want to be “affordable” because affordable, passive, heat pump etc are not good bedfellows.

[SleepyJoe]

Well insulated new builds shouldn't need a whole lot of heating, surely?

[Happier diner]

3 hours ago, SleepyJoe said:

Well insulated new builds shouldn't need a whole lot of heating, surely?

Correct,  that's why heat pumps are good for them.

Passive houses are a step further than 'well insulated'.

[SleepyJoe]

Who is building to passivhaus standard?

[quilp]

Santa Claus. 

[Happier diner]

9 minutes ago, SleepyJoe said:

Who is building to passivhaus standard?

Not many

[SleepyJoe]

Any?