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'Britain is not institutionally racist'


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2 hours ago, Max Power said:

Yobs harassing immigrants is not really institutional racism though is it? That's just bloody minded ignorant stupidity.  

It shows that racism is alive and well in the UK. Dismissing it as a few yobs masks that it remains a problem. 

2 hours ago, Max Power said:

I wouldn't feel that their histories were my history, despite speaking the language, going to local schools etc. I'd have been taught at home about my racial history and culture and I'd look different to my friends.  

Go back far enough in history and you find that all humans originated in Africa.  You do have a shared history...

So where do you draw the line with having a shared history? A 100 years? A thousand? 

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The racism is mostly all coming the other way. Contempt for or even outright hatred of British culture, it's institutions, history, beliefs, values etc. This growing minority hates the police; rejects

I’m just amazed that anyone in 2021 can try and deny institutional racism, sexism, homophobia or ableism. Of course it’s complex, of course there is history, and of course you can have a differen

@Max Power That report does strike me of being a "whitewash" because it does go against the experience of many from minority groups and as HeliX has highlighted the British press is not exactly the mo

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2 minutes ago, manxman1980 said:

It shows that racism is alive and well in the UK. Dismissing it as a few yobs masks that it remains a problem. 

Go back far enough in history and you find that all humans originated in Africa.  You do have a shared history...

So where do you draw the line with having a shared history? A 100 years? A thousand? 

I think you are starting to get a bit silly here, I never dismissed it as a few yobs? The report was about institutional racism, not individual cases, it acknowledges that racism exists. It seems to exist between all the races in some way. 

You're over simplifying the issue when it is quite complex, being a different colour and ethnic type is bound to affect your ability to see yourself as part of a particular culture or country. This is going to be magnified by the way you are brought up, especially if your parents or grandparents had a hard time. They will pass on their feelings to you and that will have consequences also. 

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4 hours ago, Max Power said:

Around 4% of the population is Black and 8% Asian at the last census, mainly concentrated in London. 

12% of the population.  12 out of 100 people in the UK are Black/Asian.  That's not a small amount. 

Yes, this is a complex subject but if you don't condemn the yobs then you (society) allow racist views to take hold.  Those yobs teach their kids those views as well.

At the root of all this we are all human beings.  We have different coloured skin and maybe a few other small physical differences but that's it.

All the cultural/history part is a construct of society.  As is religion and religious beliefs.

In my opinion the biggest barriers to settling in a different country are language, religion and the structure of society. 

If you can't speak the language then you will struggle.  

If you have a religion that dictates certain behaviours that are not common in the new country you may find yourself standing out.

If you don't understand how the society operates and the structure and organisations in that society then you will struggle to integrate and make progress.

Racism really makes no sense.  Why are people racist?  Why do some people hate others because they are different?  Sure if they have directly had a bad experience of someone of that race then maybe it tarnishes their opinion but how can you hate a different race who you have never had any interaction with? 

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2 hours ago, Max Power said:

I think you are starting to get a bit silly here, I never dismissed it as a few yobs? The report was about institutional racism, not individual cases, it acknowledges that racism exists. It seems to exist between all the races in some way. 

You're over simplifying the issue when it is quite complex, being a different colour and ethnic type is bound to affect your ability to see yourself as part of a particular culture or country. This is going to be magnified by the way you are brought up, especially if your parents or grandparents had a hard time. They will pass on their feelings to you and that will have consequences also. 

I’m just amazed that anyone in 2021 can try and deny institutional racism, sexism, homophobia or ableism.

Of course it’s complex, of course there is history, and of course you can have a different cultural experience.

What the recent report shows is that race has little to do with educational outcome. I should hope not. That seems more to do with gender and class/social background. And that needs fixing, and fast.

Then there’s your own experience. How in spite of educational success there are barriers or glass ceilings. Or because you were failed ( or you failed ) in education you’re stuck in low pay, low satisfaction jobs, treated unfairly at work ( zero hours and poor T&C ) and in society where you are excluded, marginalised, stop and searched, disproportionally. That tends to encourage a simmering resentment, of all officialdom, that only requires a “light blue touch paper” moment to ignite.

The real issue should be how to engage pupils, students, young adults, NEETS, and to try and ensure, as far as possible, that the less powerful, more marginalised, outsiders are included. That they aren’t treated differently in terms of policing, housing, opportunity, career progression.

And that does include being more sensitive, less offensive, looking at both ( or more ) sides of history, accepting harm has been done, ensuring it doesn’t happen going forward.

And that isn’t political correctness, it’s not woke, it’s common sense.

This is the latest in a long line of reports and commissions in the last two decades. It’s the only one that’s come to this conclusion. Most of the others haven’t been acted on. My view is that the appointees were appointed more for their ability to act as Uncle Toms than anything else. The outcome was preordained.

You can’t expect anything else from a country led by a PM who describes African children as picaninnies  with water melon smiles or women wearing hajibs/burkas as letterboxes. Or on here, apparently, by posters describing other people  as scum.

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1 hour ago, manxman1980 said:

12% of the population.  12 out of 100 people in the UK are Black/Asian.  That's not a small amount. 

Yes, this is a complex subject but if you don't condemn the yobs then you (society) allow racist views to take hold.  Those yobs teach their kids those views as well.

At the root of all this we are all human beings.  We have different coloured skin and maybe a few other small physical differences but that's it.

All the cultural/history part is a construct of society.  As is religion and religious beliefs.

In my opinion the biggest barriers to settling in a different country are language, religion and the structure of society. 

If you can't speak the language then you will struggle.  

If you have a religion that dictates certain behaviours that are not common in the new country you may find yourself standing out.

If you don't understand how the society operates and the structure and organisations in that society then you will struggle to integrate and make progress.

Racism really makes no sense.  Why are people racist?  Why do some people hate others because they are different?  Sure if they have directly had a bad experience of someone of that race then maybe it tarnishes their opinion but how can you hate a different race who you have never had any interaction with? 

I agree, it's not a small amount at all, and I'm not saying that we shouldn't condemn yobs for racism at all, in fact that's where we should have been starting from sixty years ago or more!

We are all human beings but we do have differences, black and Asian men have a higher natural testosterone level than white people, they don't absorb enough natural vitamin D, amongst other things, leading to poor health issues such as prostate cancer. Many studies put the average Asian IQ levels ahead of European derived people who are ahead of black people on average. Black people are physically stronger on average than white people. Some of these differences manifest themselves in behaviors.

I agree with your reasoning though, it takes an effort to see each other positively and to fit in to each other's world. I think that there must be a distrust of people different to your tribe or something, it's probably some primal thing at the root of racism? 

  

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1 hour ago, John Wright said:

This is the latest in a long line of reports and commissions in the last two decades. It’s the only one that’s come to this conclusion. Most of the others haven’t been acted on. My view is that the appointees were appointed more for their ability to act as Uncle Toms than anything else. The outcome was foreordained.

Yes, the appointees should have been from both sides of the spectrum but I guess they'd never reach a consensus? Some of the reactions from people from the black community seem to be missing the fact that this was dealing solely with institutional racism, they keep circling back around to cases of individual racism. I think this will continue to be debated for years!

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16 minutes ago, Max Power said:

 

We are all human beings but we do have differences, black and Asian men have a higher natural testosterone level than white people, they don't absorb enough natural vitamin D, amongst other things, leading to poor health issues such as prostate cancer. Many studies put the average Asian IQ levels ahead of European derived people who are ahead of black people on average. Black people are physically stronger on average than white people. Some of these differences manifest themselves in behaviors.

  

Wow, just wow! Really? 

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18 minutes ago, Max Power said:

Yes, the appointees should have been from both sides of the spectrum but I guess they'd never reach a consensus? Some of the reactions from people from the black community seem to be missing the fact that this was dealing solely with institutional racism, they keep circling back around to cases of individual racism. I think this will continue to be debated for years!

But it didn’t look at institutional racism at all. It predominantly concentrated about educational outcomes. They aren’t the same thing.

Here’s a project about raising slavery awareness in Lancaster, for a time one of the largest ports in the triangle trade, many of whose slave ships were Manx or Manx crewed.  It’s not an attack on the traders, but it seeks to celebrate the lives of black slaves and women as well as wealthy “benefactors”. Two different aspects of the same history. It’s not rewriting history. It’s trying to be inclusive, yes, but it’s explaining, rather than rewriting.

https://www.facebook.com/101433564981365/posts/263388502119203/

 

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The real history of man is evolution and it explains the origin of racism. Early man (Like pack animals) formed communities of families/tribes/groups for survival against nature and other competitive groups. It was necessary for hunting and gathering, strength, safety, protection against capture, conflict etc. They eventually became primitive societies and economies with their own language, customs, social structures etc. Race differences have been around for tens of thousands of years and they're unlikely to disappear anytime soon. Where they've been overcome it's eventually been by assimilation, adaptation and co-operation. The anthropological and evolutionary origin of racism is something that the grievance merchants and victim peddlers would do well to study and understand.  

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50 minutes ago, John Wright said:

Wow, just wow! Really? 

 

56 minutes ago, John Wright said:

Wow, just wow! Really? 

Sorry, not sure what you mean John? Differences exist, they are generally due to the nature of the environment that the particular race developed in.

48 minutes ago, John Wright said:

But it didn’t look at institutional racism at all. It predominantly concentrated about educational outcomes. They aren’t the same thing.

Here’s a project about raising slavery awareness in Lancaster, for a time one of the largest ports in the triangle trade, many of whose slave ships were Manx or Manx crewed.  It’s not an attack on the traders, but it seeks to celebrate the lives of black slaves and women as well as wealthy “benefactors”. Two different aspects of the same history. It’s not rewriting history. It’s trying to be inclusive, yes, but it’s explaining, rather than rewriting.

https://www.facebook.com/101433564981365/posts/263388502119203/

 

 I agree with recognition of the past, it shouldn't be hidden away, good or bad, history should be told as it was. The difficulty with black history in Britain is that it is mostly about their oppression and those fighting against it. It is only recently that they have been able to be recognised for the contribution they are making to Britain. There were relatively few black people in Britain up until the 50s and 60s.  

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14 minutes ago, Max Power said:

 

1. Sorry, not sure what you mean John? Differences exist, they are generally due to the nature of the environment that the particular race developed in.

2. I agree with recognition of the past, it shouldn't be hidden away, good or bad, history should be told as it was. The difficulty with black history in Britain is that it is mostly about their oppression and those fighting against it. It is only recently that they have been able to be recognised for the contribution they are making to Britain. There were relatively few black people in Britain up until the 50s and 60s.  

1. The results to which you refer are generally down the design of the tests and other sociocultural factors, type of education, family and society attitude to education. Nothing to do with race or ethnicity, or where a race developed.

2. They are here. 3rd and 4th generations. And Brits have been interacting by way of trade and colonialisation for 100’s of years. We, the majority, need to just be a little more aware.

Black history is there. Just needs finding. You know, like who was the first black IOM Newspaper editor, and general thorn in the side of MHK’s? When? And what sacrifice did he make to deliver democracy to us all? Until recently his colour wasn’t mentioned.

 

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2 hours ago, Max Power said:

I agree, it's not a small amount at all, and I'm not saying that we shouldn't condemn yobs for racism at all, in fact that's where we should have been starting from sixty years ago or more!

We are all human beings but we do have differences, black and Asian men have a higher natural testosterone level than white people, they don't absorb enough natural vitamin D, amongst other things, leading to poor health issues such as prostate cancer. Many studies put the average Asian IQ levels ahead of European derived people who are ahead of black people on average. Black people are physically stronger on average than white people. Some of these differences manifest themselves in behaviors.

I agree with your reasoning though, it takes an effort to see each other positively and to fit in to each other's world. I think that there must be a distrust of people different to your tribe or something, it's probably some primal thing at the root of racism? 

  

That is very much a generalisation.

 

Linford Christie always said that the last British man to beat him in a 100M race was a white guy. He describes that as a poke in the eye for people making racial genetic arguments.

 

As for Asians having a higher IQ. What asians? People from northern India/Pakistan. They are originally Europeans who migrated many thousands of years ago.

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20 minutes ago, prism10 said:

That is very much a generalisation.

 

Linford Christie always said that the last British man to beat him in a 100M race was a white guy. He describes that as a poke in the eye for people making racial genetic arguments.

 

As for Asians having a higher IQ. What asians? People from northern India/Pakistan. They are originally Europeans who migrated many thousands of years ago.

It probably is based on averages, the median of each would match the expectation, there will be people on either side of the spectrum. There will be brilliant and dumb people in all races.

I think the Chinese  in particular make up the most applications and acceptances of overseas students to Cambridge University for example. British Chinese make up a good number of the home acceptance too.

 https://www.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.uk/sites/www.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.uk/files/publications/ug_admissions_statistics_2019_cycle_0.pdf

 

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22 hours ago, prism10 said:

That is very much a generalisation.

 

Linford Christie always said that the last British man to beat him in a 100M race was a white guy. He describes that as a poke in the eye for people making racial genetic arguments.

 

That makes no sense.  He's basing that on one person from one race?

Go and have a look at the history of 100m sprinting.  White athletes don't feature at all.

And before you mention it - Allan Wells was an ordinary athlete gifted a gold medal due to those who were missing rather than any kind of argument that white sprinters were suddenly great.

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3 hours ago, TerryFuchwit said:

That makes no sense.  He's basing that on one person from one race?

Go and have a look at the history of 100m sprinting.  White athletes don't feature at all.

And before you mention it - Allan Wells was an ordinary athlete gifted a gold medal due to those who were missing rather than any kind of argument that white sprinters were suddenly great.

Pietro Mennea the Italian sprinter held the world 200m record for 17 years.

That was in modern times.

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