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The United Kingdom - A Muslim State?


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Sorry for the deliberately provocative title...

I have read many comments on these forums and other online platforms complaining about the number of illegal immigrants, refugees and the growth of the Muslim population in the UK and the fear that this could lead to the UK becoming a Muslim country.  This is not a view I personally hold.

However, I did find this article interesting;

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/apr/14/revealed-the-huge-british-property-empire-of-sheikh-mohammed 

According to this article Sheik Mohammed owns in excess 100,000 acres throughout the UK making him one of the biggest landowners in the UK. So my question is, should we actually be more concerned about the super wealthy like Sheik Mohammed than many people are about the refugees and illegal immigrants?  Has the UK been sold piecemeal to people (not just Sheik Mohammed) who have no commitment to the UK's history and heritage?  

Why are those who are afraid of refugees and illegal immigrants, I'm looking at you Mr Farage, not screaming about these property deal?  I suspect I know the answer but I thought it would be interesting to hear the views of others.

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32 minutes ago, manxman1980 said:

Why are those who are afraid of refugees and illegal immigrants, I'm looking at you Mr Farage, not screaming about these property deal?  I suspect I know the answer but I thought it would be interesting to hear the views of others.

Does he read the Manx Forums?

Personally I don't see why anyone would care in a free market. Britain and Britons own huge chunks of abroad.

Edited by pongo
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If you have a trade/current account deficit with a country the flip side of it is a capital account surplus of the same size. 

If we buy more trade goods (oil/gas etc) from them than they buy from us then  they will be buying more of our assets than we will be buying of theirs. 

Oh look Sheila Mohammed is investing in the UK - buying assets - it's down to economics and the wealth structure of the Middle East. He's the boss he decides how to invest the GBP he gets from selling us petrochemicals. It would be a terrible thing if he kept them under his bed. Better that they are recycled back to be reused. 

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23 minutes ago, Chinahand said:

If you have a trade/current account deficit with a country the flip side of it is a capital account surplus of the same size. 

If we buy more trade goods (oil/gas etc) from them than they buy from us then  they will be buying more of our assets than we will be buying of theirs. 

Oh look Sheila Mohammed is investing in the UK - buying assets - it's down to economics and the wealth structure of the Middle East. He's the boss he decides how to invest the GBP he gets from selling us petrochemicals. It would be a terrible thing if he kept them under his bed. Better that they are recycled back to be reused. 

Except it’s not necessarily bilateral. The funds go round in circles through many economies. And oil is bought and sold in dollars.

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Yeah, but we can't print dollars and have to pay for them with GBP and the UAE isn't dollarised either. The interbank market still has to balance the trade flows which start and end in the UK and UAE. 

I really recommend this book on the issues. 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0300244177/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_glt_fabc_J1HKVP5VJRBTR6G43GQ3

 

 

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That's a totally different issue.  It is simply an economic fact if you buy more goods from the outside world than the world buys from you then you (or the banks you use) will use the foreign currency that results to buy foreign assets.  So it it totally unsurprising UAE is purchasing UK assets.

Now you raise crime.

Well, apart from in certain circumstances that I will discuss below when someone commits a crime we don't strip them of their assets.  The Sheik isn't immune from the law and if he commits a crime it should be investigated and prosecuted.  Should he be invited to hob nob with the Queen at the races.  No.  I think the evidence is clear enough that he should suffer the social consequences for his behaviour, well before it reaches a threshold needed in a court of law, and as well as loosing his social benefits he should worry about being asked to help with police enquiries if he ever comes to the UK.

Are his assets the result of a criminal enterprise and hence worthy of being stripped from him.  He is certainly the beneficiary of a very different social structure than us and whether he deserves his wealth is a complex sociological/cultural/political/colonial issue I'm not qualified to decide upon, though I'm sure many people will want to put him up against a wall and claim his wealth for various political causes.  That's not me.  I doubt that his wealth accumulation has no dirt within it, but I also don't think it crosses the threshold of being illegitimate. The vast majority is legitimate if you accept the reality of property rights.

He's allowed to make decisions about what to do with his money and the realities of international economics mean he will accumulate GBP denominated assets. He maybe a distasteful individual in his behaviour towards his family and these are being investigated to see if there is an issue to concern the police - I'll leave that to them, but that is a separate issue than his wealth and where he spends it.

Being provocative Russian wealth often does cross the threshold of being illegitimate - manxman1980 I think the question you are asking could be reframed to ask whether the consequences of illegitimate Russian wealth creeping into UK worse than unrestricted immigration of Russians.  I have simply change the ethnic target from Arab to Russian.

I think I'm quite clear on this.  Countries exist to protect the citizens of that country.  They need laws to stop mafia-ization, and to control their borders.  I'm not in favour of unrestricted migration and the idea it cannot bring genuine social harms is silly.  I don't go into simplistic either/ors.  Both issues can be serious with profound social consequences.  When it comes to the Russian Mafia I am very concerned - when it comes to Arab cash, less so, though with reservations.  When it comes to migration - I'm glad we have visa controls to manage migration. They are needed.

 

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20 minutes ago, Chinahand said:

That's a totally different issue.  It is simply an economic fact if you buy more goods from the outside world than the world buys from you then you (or the banks you use) will use the foreign currency that results to buy foreign assets.  So it it totally unsurprising UAE is purchasing UK assets.

I won't really argue much with this.  If people have the money to buy land/housing/businesses etc regardless of their religion/race etc then our current economic model allows that.

20 minutes ago, Chinahand said:

Now you raise crime.

Well, apart from in certain circumstances that I will discuss below when someone commits a crime we don't strip them of their assets.  The Sheik isn't immune from the law and if he commits a crime it should be investigated and prosecuted.  Should he be invited to hob nob with the Queen at the races.  No.  I think the evidence is clear enough that he should suffer the social consequences for his behaviour, well before it reaches a threshold needed in a court of law, and as well as loosing his social benefits he should worry about being asked to help with police enquiries if he ever comes to the UK.

Yet he hasn't been excluded from these "social benefits" despite the evidence against him.  Is this because the powers that be perceive his wealth and the control he has over valuable resources to be too valuable to risk prosecuting or isolating him?

If this was an asylum seeker who had allegedly abducted someone in the UK then the authorities would have been all over it and the media would be screaming for deportation.

20 minutes ago, Chinahand said:

Are his assets the result of a criminal enterprise and hence worthy of being stripped from him.  He is certainly the beneficiary of a very different social structure than us and whether he deserves his wealth is a complex sociological/cultural/political/colonial issue I'm not qualified to decide upon, though I'm sure many people will want to put him up against a wall and claim his wealth for various political causes.  That's not me.  I doubt that his wealth accumulation has no dirt within it, but I also don't think it crosses the threshold of being illegitimate. The vast majority is legitimate if you accept the reality of property rights.

He's allowed to make decisions about what to do with his money and the realities of international economics mean he will accumulate GBP denominated assets. He maybe a distasteful individual in his behaviour towards his family and these are being investigated to see if there is an issue to concern the police - I'll leave that to them, but that is a separate issue than his wealth and where he spends it.

As you say his assets in the UK are probably not the proceeds of any crime in the UK.  I raised the criminal aspect because of the crime he is alleged to have committed in the UK.

20 minutes ago, Chinahand said:

Being provocative Russian wealth often does cross the threshold of being illegitimate - manxman1980 I think the question you are asking could be reframed to ask whether the consequences of illegitimate Russian wealth creeping into UK worse than unrestricted immigration of Russians.  I have simply change the ethnic target from Arab to Russian.

I agree.  As I said in my original post I was being deliberately provocative when comparing a wealthy Muslim with Muslims who are trying to enter the UK illegally or via the asylum route.  One set seems to get a free pass while the others...  let's say are viewed with great suspicion and many people want them sent straight back to their country of origin or at best the EU. 

I would also agree with your assessment of Russian wealth.

20 minutes ago, Chinahand said:

I think I'm quite clear on this.  Countries exist to protect the citizens of that country.  They need laws to stop mafia-ization, and to control their borders.  I'm not in favour of unrestricted migration and the idea it cannot bring genuine social harms is silly.  I don't go into simplistic either/ors.  Both issues can be serious with profound social consequences.  When it comes to the Russian Mafia I am very concerned - when it comes to Arab cash, less so, though with reservations.  When it comes to migration - I'm glad we have visa controls to manage migration. They are needed.

The problem with visa controls to manage migrations is that they allow exceptions in the case of wealthy individuals regardless of who they are and what activities they are planning on in the UK.  Basically as long as the Government think you are going to spend a lot of money and won't be reliant on benefits then you are welcome into the country.

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In its majestic equality, the law forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets and steal loaves of bread.

Anatole France

The rich can bring other problems. 

In its majestic equality, the law forbids rich and poor alike from committing tax evasion, buying influence and undertaking state capture. 

It is right and good that the state is concerned with all these social issues. 

And if you think our dear Sheik will be invited to the royal box ever again I think you are very mistaken. The Queen does have standards and the younger royals are afraid of the press coverage. 

 

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34 minutes ago, Chinahand said:

And if you think our dear Sheik will be invited to the royal box ever again I think you are very mistaken. The Queen does have standards and the younger royals are afraid of the press coverage. 

The Queen and the Royals will do what they are told by a morally corrupt Government...  Remember the Royal Family do not interfere with Politics and if Johnson et al say it is for the good of the nation....

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43 minutes ago, Chinahand said:

I have very little respect for Prince Charles but my assessment of the man greatly increased when in 1999 at the last minute he didn't attend a State Banquet for CCP boss Jiang Zemin. 

https://m.independent.ie/world-news/charles-snubs-banquet-for-chinese-president-26136111.html

 

That was 22 years ago under a Labour Government.  Would the same happen now under the current, and very specifically, the current Tory Government?  This Government is corrupt to the core and I would not out it past them to threaten the monarchy with cuts to their income or something similar in order to get what they want.

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FFS man, I’ve seen some ridiculous posts on this forum over the years but that’s probably the worst of the lot. It is obviously utter bollocks and only a complete idiot would believe it. She’s only 5’4”.

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Unfortunately, the Quilliam organisation, which has been a liberal voice of British Muslims since 2007 has closed in the past week. The fact that they spoke with a moderating and peaceful tone about terror attacks, child sex grooming, pictures of Mohammed and Islamic extremism etc in general caused them to come under viscous attack from the self appointed and unelected so called Muslim community leaders as they didn't fit in with the agenda. Despite the fact that the Muslim majority are moderate and deny that these people speak for them. It's time that they started electing their community representatives and excluding the nutters.   

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