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Liberalism, what went wrong?


Max Power
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7 minutes ago, Mr. Sausages said:

What do you want to debate max? Or what do you want to see being debated? I’m betting there’s a countless YouTube channels or Reddit pages I can point you towards. 
 

 

I'm sure there probably are, but I don't need to be depressed by that lot. 

4 minutes ago, HeliX said:

Feelings rather than facts are the main issue in the race debate?

Really?

Do you honestly think there's a shortage of facts to support race problems in the Western world?

They are when we talk of micro aggressions, didn't you see that bit? This appears to be an area which we, as white people are mostly guilty, probably you included.  

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Just now, Max Power said:

They are when we talk of micro aggressions, didn't you see that bit? This appears to be an area which we, as white people are mostly guilty, probably you included.  

Seems a bit of a cop-out to pick something that there will never be useful statistics for and use that to discredit the entire debate?

I almost certainly am, but I try to be mindful in my speech.

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1 minute ago, HeliX said:

Seems a bit of a cop-out to pick something that there will never be useful statistics for and use that to discredit the entire debate?

I almost certainly am, but I try to be mindful in my speech.

I'm not really copping out, but I know from the Stu Peters thread that we can get into a lot of things that which can be squashed by simply calling someone a racist. A position that it's almost impossible to come back from, and I don't want to be 'cancelled' by Manx Forums! :) 

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2 minutes ago, Max Power said:

I'm not really copping out, but I know from the Stu Peters thread that we can get into a lot of things that which can be squashed by simply calling someone a racist. A position that it's almost impossible to come back from, and I don't want to be 'cancelled' by Manx Forums! :) 

I don't recall anyone being cancelled nor being called racist in the Stu Peters thread. I think you have a much more negative view than what is really happening - a quick google search will turn up pages and pages of live debate, textual debate, op-eds, news pieces etc over race issues, including many from this year. I think there's a danger of conflating the consequences of bad public behaviour that brings someone's employer into disrepute with suppression of debate. Which is understandable as it's often the first thing those facing the consequences of their actions cry foul over.

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3 minutes ago, HeliX said:

I don't recall anyone being cancelled nor being called racist in the Stu Peters thread. I think you have a much more negative view than what is really happening - a quick google search will turn up pages and pages of live debate, textual debate, op-eds, news pieces etc over race issues, including many from this year. I think there's a danger of conflating the consequences of bad public behaviour that brings someone's employer into disrepute with suppression of debate. Which is understandable as it's often the first thing those facing the consequences of their actions cry foul over.

I guess you're right to a point, but you can't deny that the fact that many innocent people are getting caught up in an over zealous atmosphere 'wokery' at times. They are then forced to defend themselves, sometimes suffering incredible abuse, until proven innocent, usually by some self appointed corporate body rather than any official court of law. This relates to many aspects of everyday life, not just race, but sexual orientation, mental health, workplace bullying, harassment etc. These 'kangaroo courts' tend to work on the principle of guilty until proven innocent! 

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2 hours ago, Max Power said:

I guess you're right to a point, but you can't deny that the fact that many innocent people are getting caught up in an over zealous atmosphere 'wokery' at times.

Can you be specific and give examples?

As I said before "woke" and "wokery" are just new terms for Political Correctness.  

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16 minutes ago, manxman1980 said:

Can you be specific and give examples?

As I said before "woke" and "wokery" are just new terms for Political Correctness.  

This is just an example which was being touted around in various media outlets.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9476415/Smith-College-cafeteria-worker-smeared-false-racism-claim-speaks-out.html

The college was taken to task by Black intellectuals who recognised the damage done.

https://nypost.com/2021/03/22/african-american-intellectuals-decry-smith-colleges-false-cries-of-racismafrican-american-intellectuals-decry-smith-colleges-false-cries-of-racism/

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9 hours ago, Max Power said:

Difficult to really comment on that case as it is in the US. Clearly this woman was not dismissed from her role given that she was still working there when setting up a go fund me page.

What I would say is that UK law the employer would only require a "reasonable belief" to take disciplinary action as opposed to "beyond all reasonable doubt" which is required in a criminal court. 

I don't think it is unreasonable for an employer to provide training around equality and discrimination especially for people who have accusations made against them.

I would also urge caution citing Daily Mail articles as a reliable source.

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6 hours ago, manxman1980 said:

I would also urge caution citing Daily Mail articles as a reliable source.

I agree but it's easily accessed, there's quite a lot of coverage of the case if you are interested.

The point I was making is that the staff involved went through a lot of public pillorying due to the amount of coverage which the case had. They were considered guilty although they had done nothing wrong. 

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32 minutes ago, Max Power said:

I agree but it's easily accessed, there's quite a lot of coverage of the case if you are interested.

Yes, but the coverage tends to reflect a very specific view on events and often there is no follow up on long running cases especially when it turns out their original claims were misleading.

32 minutes ago, Max Power said:

The point I was making is that the staff involved went through a lot of public pillorying due to the amount of coverage which the case had. They were considered guilty although they had done nothing wrong. 

Checked out a few stories on this case and it does raise some interesting points, however, one comment I did find interesting was “We used to joke, don’t let a rich student report you, because if you do, you’re gone,” said Mark Patenaude, a janitor." 

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/24/us/smith-college-race.html

The same article points out that the employees of the college are often not from a wealthy background so it appears that class may also have played a part in this.  

I think the details of this case would not have played out the same way in the UK.  

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2 hours ago, Mr. Sausages said:

I see the liberals* have cancelled Jewish Alexei Sayle for anti-semitism now.

*a right wing tory mp

 

What is remarkable is that all this Liberalism has come to the fore during a period of Conservatism in the UK and USA....

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