Jump to content

Liberalism, what went wrong?


Max Power
 Share

Recommended Posts

Oh come on ... can you really not see a coarsening of debate where both extremes go I don't need to consider your opinion because you are [insert political justification - racist, social justice warrior, fascist, radical feminist etc].  When someone so tarred is invited to explain their point of view the response isn't a willingness to listen, but a call for them to be uninvited, deliberate obstruction of the person to stop them speaking.

You are being wilfully blind if you don't think this has become more common in the last 10 years or so. The issues around freedom of speech are far more controversial now than a few decades ago.

I don't need to listen to you because you are [a transphobe, a climate change denier, a racist, a SJW, alt-right, ctl-left] this is occurring more, and people are having their careers affected.  An example from the left - why has Nikole Hannah-Jones been denied tenure?  Or from the left why Larry Summers got in to such trouble at Harvard.

  • Thanks 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

26 minutes ago, Chinahand said:

Oh come on ... can you really not see a coarsening of debate where both extremes go I don't need to consider your opinion because you are [insert political justification - racist, social justice warrior, fascist, radical feminist etc].  When someone so tarred is invited to explain their point of view the response isn't a willingness to listen, but a call for them to be uninvited, deliberate obstruction of the person to stop them speaking.

You are being wilfully blind if you don't think this has become more common in the last 10 years or so. The issues around freedom of speech are far more controversial now than a few decades ago.

I don't need to listen to you because you are [a transphobe, a climate change denier, a racist, a SJW, alt-right, ctl-left] this is occurring more, and people are having their careers affected.  An example from the left - why has Nikole Hannah-Jones been denied tenure?  Or from the left why Larry Summers got in to such trouble at Harvard.

It may be becoming more common, or it may be that social media has made it more visible, for a number of reasons.

All university student unions in the 1970’s were run by a bewildering array of left, far left to extreme left student politicos. A bit like the current alphabet city of LGBTQIA+. Trots, Marxists, Lenninists, Broad Left, Socialist this, that and the other. They all had no platforming ( read Cancel Culture ) policies, for fascists and racists ( Maggie, Kenneth Clark, Keith Joseph - all Tories were fascist and racist ). SU meetings were interminable as the factions struggled to agree anything.

But, China, you forget, Universities aren’t public places. They’re private. They are run as businesses, paid for by the students. There’s no right to platform. Being denied a platform doesn’t stop freedom of speech, just limits where you can exercise it. Like BBC, ITV, print media. You can’t just turn up, walk in, say anything. It’s the right, far right, Alt right, who want to use them as a venue for political platform. They deliberately choose rather than a private venue down the road precisely because they know the result and desire the outcome, which is that they get to play the victim card, get publicity, stoke up trouble, let their thuggish supporters claim they’re defending freedom of speech, when they’re doing no such thing.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

42 minutes ago, Chinahand said:

Oh come on ... can you really not see a coarsening of debate where both extremes go I don't need to consider your opinion because you are [insert political justification - racist, social justice warrior, fascist, radical feminist etc].  When someone so tarred is invited to explain their point of view the response isn't a willingness to listen, but a call for them to be uninvited, deliberate obstruction of the person to stop them speaking.

You are being wilfully blind if you don't think this has become more common in the last 10 years or so. The issues around freedom of speech are far more controversial now than a few decades ago.

I don't need to listen to you because you are [a transphobe, a climate change denier, a racist, a SJW, alt-right, ctl-left] this is occurring more, and people are having their careers affected.  An example from the left - why has Nikole Hannah-Jones been denied tenure?  Or from the left why Larry Summers got in to such trouble at Harvard.

Where are you looking for debate? The only place I see your first paragraph happening is Twitter and other social media, which is a shithole anyway.

I still see plenty of healthy, in-person or otherwise debates taking place on very controversial topics.

I think this has highlighted my problem with assertions of cancel culture, no-one is trying to stop good faith debates. Yet that's always the implied claim.

re: Nikole Hannah-Jones, that's not an example of cancel culture either. That's a University refusing to acknowledge the past.

re: Larry Summers, he's considered centrist in America so I'd contest him being on the left in a civilised country! I can't view that article, but wasn't he the one with links to Epstein?

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, HeliX said:

re: Nikole Hannah-Jones, that's not an example of cancel culture either. That's a University refusing to acknowledge the past.

re: Larry Summers, he's considered centrist in America so I'd contest him being on the left in a civilised country! I can't view that article, but wasn't he the one with links to Epstein?

There are always reasons, usually people's opinions or links.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...
On 6/12/2021 at 5:20 PM, Chinahand said:

Thought this was a good monologue which is addressing something real in this debate. 

 

I don't disagree with almost anything he says there - but I do disagree that he's addressing something real. Outside of very fringe communities (and erudite thinker of our time Kevin Hart apparently), nobody is claiming anything is "worse than its ever been" - except perhaps things like pillaging of the planet's natural resources, which I don't think is a controversial take.

I spend a lot of time talking to leftists, and I have seen no-one claim that racism is worse than it's ever been. There are some people (me included) who believe that racism is getting worse in some places, and that wealth inequality is getting worse in many places, but nobody is claiming that they're worse than they have ever been.

Though it's much easier to make a diatribe against the idea that they are.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, HeliX said:

I spend a lot of time talking to leftists, and I have seen no-one claim that racism is worse than it's ever been. 

I don't think it's worse than its ever been either.  

I just think racists have many more platforms available where they can express their views and have them reinforced by others which means it can feel overwhelming. 

Trying to close down platforms that allow racism is like playing wack-a-mole.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 5/14/2021 at 2:00 PM, Max Power said:

I can't help feeling that we are sliding into a dystopian nightmare. At one time, you could question anything and everything without fear of consequences and reprisals. No it seems that you can't even question liberalism itself, leading to a loss of free speech and thought. You must conform to a predetermined opinion or be cast out. You can't even apologise for a slip of the tongue or an unwise choice of words, the liberals have deemed that that slip betrays your true feelings and opinions. Far from an enlightened society, we are fast becoming an almost totalitarian society! Is social media the cause, are we so stupid that we happily give up our freedoms to satisfy a ranting minority?

Then don't go along with it! YOU are the problem if you moderate your speech so as to not risk offending anyone. I absolutely refuse to submit to it and am not afraid to call a spade a spade. It has got me some funny looks at times, but a LOT of admiration as well from people like yourself. Oh - and guess what? NO adverse consequences have ensued as a result of me gobbing off. NONE! Stop being a pussy and assert yourself, man! Everyone concerned about this issue has the power within them to rectify the situation if only they realised it.

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, HeliX said:

I spend a lot of time talking to leftists, and I have seen no-one claim that racism is worse than it's ever been. There are some people (me included) who believe that racism is getting worse in some places, and that wealth inequality is getting worse in many places, but nobody is claiming that they're worse than they have ever been.

Though it's much easier to make a diatribe against the idea that they are.

 

1 hour ago, manxman1980 said:

I don't think it's worse than its ever been either.  

I just think racists have many more platforms available where they can express their views and have them reinforced by others which means it can feel overwhelming. 

Trying to close down platforms that allow racism is like playing wack-a-mole.

Exactly, I don't think racism is anywhere near as bad is it was. It's never been eradicated but I don't think it's possible to get rid of it altogether as we have no control over thought. 

Racism is abhorrent, but so is looking for it where it doesn't exist and acting as though it does. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Max Power said:

 

Exactly, I don't think racism is anywhere near as bad is it was. It's never been eradicated but I don't think it's possible to get rid of it altogether as we have no control over thought. 

Racism is abhorrent, but so is looking for it where it doesn't exist and acting as though it does. 

There's still plenty of it to get rid of though. And in some places, as manxman points out, it's making a bit of a resurgence due to social media.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Most people suffer from isms or phobias. They all bubble away under the surface and appear from time to time. And we suffer from being them as well as being the object of them. Often unthinkingly.

It may not be slavery, or not being able to practice your faith or denomination, or not being able to express your love because of the law. But there’s still an undercurrent.

Possibly because society is more inclusive those subjected to racism, anti Zionism, ableism, islamophobia, homophobia, are more sensitive to the last vestiges. They feel empowered to act and challenge.

I was angry yesterday about another disabled person. I didn’t see them. If I had I’d have given them a piece of my mind. They’d possibly have interpreted it as ableism.  Why was I angry? I was due to attend an official meeting in Markwell House. In my chair. The ramp was blocked by someone’s mobility scooter. Just parked there. I understand the problem. Too large to go through the door. Nowhere else to park. But I couldn’t get in without assistance. Get someone to come out carry my chair up the steps.

Its a Government building. It has ramps. It has power doors with push button operation. The doors open out, the buttons are too close. The ramp is narrow. Then inside there’s a double door set up. The two sets doors are too close together. When you open the first door ( only one half is motorised - the other is bolted shut ) you can’t fully open the second doors without the first door closing on you. It’s half baked. It’s the frustrations of coming up against these minor inconveniences day after day, many times a day.

  • Like 3
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...