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Domestic abuse


Tricky
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5 minutes ago, John Wright said:

It’s not a fact. It’s an unsubstantiated allegation. There’s no evidence. And it’s made by men, disgruntled by the fact they haven’t got what they thought they were entitled to.

What you postulate would be unprofessional to the extent of warranting a striking off, and would be a criminal conspiracy to defraud the Treasury.

I am very fortunate that it doesn’t impact me directly but I do know there are quite an active group of fathers all in a similar situation now and there is a single common denominator in the form of one particular advocate representing all the women. 
 

The system is rotten to the core and the people suffering are the children.  
 

Domesric violence in all it forms is abhorrent.

I still maintain that judgement being made on any allegations should be in criminal court not family court when the implications of the decision are so far reaching into so many peoples lives.

 

 

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23 minutes ago, Ramseyboi said:

Fact remains if you looked at how many parents wind legal aid solely based on DA allegations it will be massively weighted towards Mums.

That’s because domestic abusers are weighted 75% men and 25% women.

I’m not one of those. I am a person of balance and of fairness snd I can tell you that through years of experience there are also cases where women are  put through the wringer through court as well. It’s not just men who suffer after abuse. 

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8 minutes ago, Roxanne said:

That’s because domestic abusers are weighted 75% men and 25% women.

I’m not one of those. I am a person of balance and of fairness snd I can tell you that through years of experience there are also cases where women are  put through the wringer through court as well. It’s not just men who suffer after abuse. 

No one said it was.

In an ideal world there wouldn’t ever be court as either da would be proven in criminal court at which point the guilty party forgoes any right to anything, or two reasonable people resolve out of court to do what is best for the kids.

My point was that certain local advocates are playing the DA card to win unlimited legal aid. To mu knowledge there of serenely cases of this currently being investigated and all are the advocates “advising” the mother.

That is completely different to what you are reading between the lines and I will leave it there and say that anyone of any sex or persuasion who deliberately hurts upsets or manipulates another should be dealt with and bang up following a criminal conviction.

 

 

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33 minutes ago, Ramseyboi said:

I am very fortunate that it doesn’t impact me directly but I do know there are quite an active group of fathers all in a similar situation now and there is a single common denominator in the form of one particular advocate representing all the women. 
 

The system is rotten to the core and the people suffering are the children.  
 

Domesric violence in all it forms is abhorrent.

I still maintain that judgement being made on any allegations should be in criminal court not family court when the implications of the decision are so far reaching into so many peoples lives.

 

 

I agree that the ones who suffer most are the kids.

But what you suggest is going to cause more suffering and possible more serious injury. Inevitably these incidents occur in the home, unwitnessed. The evidence is he said, she said. There’s never going to be criminal convictions. You’re condemning abused and children to live with abuser in a pressure cooker until much worse happens. Not good.

There is evidence in the proceedings you criticise. Sworn statements, or statements of truth on pain of penalty for perjury. The court makes a provisional order for a limited period. The alleged abuser then has the opportunity to challenge and not only give evidence but cross examine the person making the allegations.

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7 minutes ago, John Wright said:

I agree that the ones who suffer most are the kids.

But what you suggest is going to cause more suffering and possible more serious injury. Inevitably these incidents occur in the home, unwitnessed. The evidence is he said, she said. There’s never going to be criminal convictions. You’re condemning abused and children to live with abuser in a pressure cooker until much worse happens. Not good.

There is evidence in the proceedings you criticise. Sworn statements, or statements of truth on pain of penalty for perjury. The court makes a provisional order for a limited period. The alleged abuser then has the opportunity to challenge and not only give evidence but cross examine the person making the allegations.

Which in Dave’s case would have meant him taking on a seasoned family lawyer in a court of law with no legal knowledge and not even the funds to pay for a mobile phone or broadband (although he could have used mine as he was staying with us) while medicated off his nut by the mental health unit at Nobles in response to his world being turned upside down.  All in a bid to change the mind of a judge who had formed his opinion single handedly some months previous.

He tried, and then he tried to take his life.

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6 minutes ago, Ramseyboi said:

Which in Dave’s case would have meant him taking on a seasoned family lawyer in a court of law with no legal knowledge and not even the funds to pay for a mobile phone or broadband (although he could have used mine as he was staying with us) while medicated off his nut by the mental health unit at Nobles in response to his world being turned upside down.  All in a bid to change the mind of a judge who had formed his opinion single handedly some months previous.

He tried, and then he tried to take his life.

And yet you would have subjected him to criminal proceedings, and he could have afforded to defend criminal proceedings and survived a criminal trial?

You don’t need to employ an advocate, you can give your own evidence and ask questions.

And if he had no funds and was truly penniless, he’d have got legal aid.

And Deemsters don’t make up their minds on an ex parte interim application.

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22 minutes ago, John Wright said:

I agree that the ones who suffer most are the kids.

But what you suggest is going to cause more suffering and possible more serious injury. Inevitably these incidents occur in the home, unwitnessed. The evidence is he said, she said. There’s never going to be criminal convictions. You’re condemning abused and children to live with abuser in a pressure cooker until much worse happens. Not good.

There is evidence in the proceedings you criticise. Sworn statements, or statements of truth on pain of penalty for perjury. The court makes a provisional order for a limited period. The alleged abuser then has the opportunity to challenge and not only give evidence but cross examine the person making the allegations.

John

I expected more, if you don't think that one unsubstantiated accusation of harm to ones own children is enough to instigate years of legal fees and heartbreak, in the middle of a bitter divorce, to both the, usually father and the children is broken I don't know what is.

I know "Profiling" is fround apon but really, it should have some bearing on the case. Trust me having to visit your own children "under supervision" at a government owned property will live with me, and my children, the eldest anyway, for the rest of our lives.

The islands couple of "specialist" divorce lawyers should hang their heads.

 

Edited by Boris Johnson
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10 minutes ago, John Wright said:

I agree that the ones who suffer most are the kids.

But what you suggest is going to cause more suffering and possible more serious injury. Inevitably these incidents occur in the home, unwitnessed. The evidence is he said, she said. There’s never going to be criminal convictions. You’re condemning abused and children to live with abuser in a pressure cooker until much worse happens. Not good.

There is evidence in the proceedings you criticise. Sworn statements, or statements of truth on pain of penalty for perjury. The court makes a provisional order for a limited period. The alleged abuser then has the opportunity to challenge and not only give evidence but cross examine the person making the allegations.

Oh.  And cross examination was only by pre written

 

16 minutes ago, John Wright said:

And yet you would have subjected him to criminal proceedings, and he could have afforded to defend criminal proceedings and survived a criminal trial?

You don’t need to employ an advocate, you can give your own evidence and ask questions.

And if he had no funds and was truly penniless, he’d have got legal aid.

And Deemsters don’t make up their minds on an ex parte interim application.

John you really have no idea.

I am tempted to send you a pm but it would be wasted.  That is genuinely one of the funniest posts I have read on here and so clearly penned by an advocate rather than someone who lives in the real world it is embarrassing.

scenario a.  The funds from Dave’s and his ex’s marriage are in a joint account and the resolution of such is deliberately being delayed by the ex wife’s solicitor until child matters are resolved.

Dave can’t work due to mental health issues as a result of not seeing his kids and being chased daily for money by people but he can’t touch the marital Money as it is in a joint account pending court proceedings.

Guess what? Dave can’t get benefits or legal aid because he has “savings”

Dave falls deeper and deeper into depression and is only saved by friends/me.

ex wife has legal aid coming out of her arse.

 

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7 minutes ago, Boris Johnson said:

John

I expected more, if you don't think that one unsubstantiated accusation of harm to ones own children is enough to instigate years of legal fees and heartbreak, in the middle of a bitter divorce, to both the, usually father and the children is broken I don't know what is.

I know "Profiling" is fround apon but really, it should have some bearing on the case. Trust me having to visit your own children "under supervision" at a government owned property will live with me, and my children, the eldest anyway, for the rest of our lives.

The islands couple of "specialist" divorce lawyers should hang their heads.

 

I’m sorry I don’t measure up.

Any system will be a compromise.

No system the forensically examines each major and minor allegation hurled either way, with the advocates in the middle trying to keep a lid on it.

Advocates haven’t the time or ability to ascertain whether what their client instructs is right or wrong or true. Although they will check for contradictions and question. The courts are too slow. Parents use the kids as missiles. That’s wrong.

But the present system is a mid point between the father automatically got custody as in C19 and early C20 and the wife automatically got custody post WW2.

Also, the court daren't ignore the allegations and it escalate to something much more serious. Years of sad cases, including horrific abuse and death have proved that.

We don’t now have awards of custody, except in the most exceptional cases. Custody remains joint, with shared residence and contact. 

The problem is feelings and emotions. And pride. And self denial. The last two I’ve advised I basically said forget the allegations. Agree the exclusion and partner non molestation ( but with the caveat that you don’t accept the truth of the allegations ). Put them behind you and now start on repairing things to normalise child support, residence and contact. It’s pragmatic advice. It’s sensible advice. But it’s never accepted.

Its all well and good criticising, courts, social services, advocates, charities, your partner. But what do you suggest is put in place that safeguards the kids, puts a roof over their heads, and provides stability, fast.

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4 minutes ago, John Wright said:

I’m sorry I don’t measure up.

Any system will be a compromise.

No system the forensically examines each major and minor allegation hurled either way, with the advocates in the middle trying to keep a lid on it.

Advocates haven’t the time or ability to ascertain whether what their client instructs is right or wrong or true. Although they will check for contradictions and question. The courts are too slow. Parents use the kids as missiles. That’s wrong.

But the present system is a mid point between the father automatically got custody as in C19 and early C20 and the wife automatically got custody post WW2.

Also, the court daren't ignore the allegations and it escalate to something much more serious. Years of sad cases, including horrific abuse and death have proved that.

We don’t now have awards of custody, except in the most exceptional cases. Custody remains joint, with shared residence and contact. 

The problem is feelings and emotions. And pride. And self denial. The last two I’ve advised I basically said forget the allegations. Agree the exclusion and partner non molestation ( but with the caveat that you don’t accept the truth of the allegations ). Put them behind you and now start on repairing things to normalise child support, residence and contact. It’s pragmatic advice. It’s sensible advice. But it’s never accepted.

Its all well and good criticising, courts, social services, advocates, charities, your partner. But what do you suggest is put in place that safeguards the kids, puts a roof over their heads, and provides stability, fast.

I don't know, its above my pay grade but the current system is broken.

ETA There a re a couple of Advocates on the island that could do a lot to help the situation if they changed their attitude.

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1 minute ago, Ramseyboi said:

Oh.  And cross examination was only by pre written

 

John you really have no idea.

I am tempted to send you a pm but it would be wasted.  That is genuinely one of the funniest posts I have read on here and so clearly penned by an advocate rather than someone who lives in the real world it is embarrassing.

scenario a.  The funds from Dave’s and his ex’s marriage are in a joint account and the resolution of such is deliberately being delayed by the ex wife’s solicitor until child matters are resolved.

Dave can’t work due to mental health issues as a result of not seeing his kids and being chased daily for money by people but he can’t touch the marital Money as it is in a joint account pending court proceedings.

Guess what? Dave can’t get benefits or legal aid because he has “savings”

Dave falls deeper and deeper into depression and is only saved by friends/me.

ex wife has legal aid coming out of her arse.

 

Except the money in the joint account is also her asset and taken into account for her entitlement to benefits and legal aid just as much as his.

Im sorry you find the explanation of the system funny. And of course it’s written by an advocate. But one with experience and compassion.

Im not sure what you would suggest that protects the children. The relationship is clearly over and there’s resentment or hatred, probably on both sides.

And neither of us are able to really know what’s happened. You may be close to “Dave” but even you are only getting one side.

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For clarity, my question wasn't pertaining to divorce, children etc. I wish to know if I can bring a domestic abuse case against a family member (not marital). It seems apparent that this is not possible atm, but there may be alternatives. In respect of the generalisations posts, I can't speak for the general population, only myself, but can say that the generalisations made, and my own position are poles apart... shockingly so.

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