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IOM poverty


Paulos The Great
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Just now, Zarley said:

The IOMG don't cover tuition costs aside from students from very low income families. The nursing courses are the only exception. Tuition costs are covered in full for nursing, together with a £5,000 yearly bursary, neither of which are means tested. 

I also think education should not be only for the rich. To the contrary it should be free, or at least very low cost. I think it should be paid for through taxes; after all it is an investment in all our futures.

Apprenticeships should also be more widely available and free or very low cost. Not everyone wants to attend university, but everyone should be able to have some form of education beyond high school if they want one. 

I understand that circumstances can change but surely such changes could somehow be accommodated.

To be fair, perhaps what bothered me was the way the speaker emphasised and spoke at length about the idea that one could earn the qualifications and leave to work elsewhere, but never said a word about the benefits to both the student and the wider community of using the qualifications here. It came across as encouraging leaving, but not encouraging remaining.  It didn't sit right with the person I attended with either. 

RE: The bold part, there are that many valid circumstance changes that you'd end up with the same system again anyway - please come back but we can't make you. Which I think is the right approach. We should be aiming to retain our own talent, and attract new talent, through merit rather than requirement.

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4 hours ago, HeliX said:

The IOMG don't cover tuition costs aside from students

The government do cover most tuition costs for all students except for those earning over £100k with just one child & increases upwards depending on children in education. You have to take out loan for £2.5k pa as contributions so over 3 year course £7.5k towards £27.75k cost.

Above has been in place 7/8 years.

 

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6 hours ago, Declan said:

Also you'll be asking civil servants - who've left school at 16 and only ever worked for the IOMG to make decisions about the usefulness of subjects they have no understanding of. 

Aint that the truth........

The generation I grew up with here in the 70s who were in the middle, B stream, are all now nearing the end of their CS careers on the island.

Some, in fact most of the ones I know, are well up the CS greasy pole and are in charge of making decisions that effect all of us.

I am in not jealous saying this,  I make a very decent living but of the ones I went to school with and know since are not the sharpest.

I would go as far as saying I would not employ them myself in one of my businesses' less demanding positions.

They have moved up the ladder just based on time served, not on ability it seems. The few I know from school that did go to uni and were bright are no further up the ladder than the B streamers.

Regarding encouraging our youth to take degrees that when they return will benefit the island, the island is no longer attractive to any type of dynamic youth or someone who wants to set up their own small business. All 3 of my children have not returned and are doing well in the UK and further afield.

 

 

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25 minutes ago, Banker said:

The government do cover most tuition costs for all students except for those earning over £100k with just one child & increases upwards depending on children in education. You have to take out loan for £2.5k pa as contributions so over 3 year course £7.5k towards £27.75k cost.

Above has been in place 7/8 years.

 

To clarify

The gov cover £6.5K of the yearly uni fee £9k fee, the other £2.5k is given as a loan to the student which must be repaid when they finish and certain criteria is met.  That is a nice thing and better than the UK

BUT AND ITS A BIG BUT that is the easy bit! The halls and later the houses that they reside in are not covered or their day to day expenses.

There are no loans available to cover this as there is in the UK so you end up laying out about £200-250 a week to cover this.

This is just not possible for lots and you have to be on minimum wage before they help toward it. Parents are still responsible for this even if their child has left home and for example got a job and made their own way in life for a few years

 

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22 minutes ago, offshoremanxman said:

I wouldn’t say a family earning £30K odd a year was on a very low income or in poverty.

£30k household income with at least one teenage child is low income. Works out at what, about £25K net pay? House big enough for 2 + at least 1 child is going to be at least £10K of that per year. Add in food, attempting to save for, well, anything, travel costs, and then board & food for a child away at Uni...

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56 minutes ago, offshoremanxman said:

The IOM government covers a lot of the tuition costs so that’s just wrong. What do you define as a low income? If you earn under £30K as a couple it’s basically largely covered apart from the small grant your child has to take out - and that includes your accommodation costs via the maintenance grant. I wouldn’t say a family earning £30K odd a year was on a very low income or in poverty. Yet the bulk of their tuition fees and accommodation costs wouid be covered. 

It's not wrong that the nursing courses are the only ones where the tuition fees are completely paid for, with a 5k bursary on top, regardless of income. 

Also, it's not a "small grant" that has to be taken out, it's a loan. Big difference.

I know of several families who were turned down for the maintenance grant, families who were living pay cheque to pay cheque and could ill afford the expense. I also know of twins who both wanted to go to uni where the parents made a tiny bit over the threshold for help. In the end neither went as the parents decided it was the only fair way to deal with the issue. I'm not privy to the exact state of the finances of any of these families, I'm just relating what I've been told by them. 

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31 minutes ago, Zarley said:

It's not wrong that the nursing courses are the only ones where the tuition fees are completely paid for, with a 5k bursary on top, regardless of income. 

Also, it's not a "small grant" that has to be taken out, it's a loan. Big difference.

I know of several families who were turned down for the maintenance grant, families who were living pay cheque to pay cheque and could ill afford the expense. I also know of twins who both wanted to go to uni where the parents made a tiny bit over the threshold for help. In the end neither went as the parents decided it was the only fair way to deal with the issue. I'm not privy to the exact state of the finances of any of these families, I'm just relating what I've been told by them. 

I’m not sure why there’s not been much complaining about the lack of a loan system for living expenses as is available in UK, MHKS should be taking this up and would think the labour members should 

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2 hours ago, offshoremanxman said:

The IOM government covers a lot of the tuition costs so that’s just wrong. What do you define as a low income? If you earn under £30K as a couple it’s basically largely covered apart from the small grant your child has to take out - and that includes your accommodation costs via the maintenance grant. I wouldn’t say a family earning £30K odd a year was on a very low income or in poverty. Yet the bulk of their tuition fees and accommodation costs wouid be covered. 

Not true. 

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2 hours ago, offshoremanxman said:

The IOM government covers a lot of the tuition costs so that’s just wrong. What do you define as a low income? If you earn under £30K as a couple it’s basically largely covered apart from the small grant your child has to take out - and that includes your accommodation costs via the maintenance grant. I wouldn’t say a family earning £30K odd a year was on a very low income or in poverty. Yet the bulk of their tuition fees and accommodation costs wouid be covered. 

They aren't.  The term accommodation fees are around £2,500, the term maintenance grant is £1,000 something.  I will check, but the maintenance grant goes nowhere near accommodation costs, let alone other costs, particularly in the first year when most stay in halls. 

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4 minutes ago, Gladys said:

They aren't.  The term accommodation fees are around £2,500, the term maintenance grant is £1,000 something.  I will check, but the maintenance grant goes nowhere near accommodation costs, let alone other costs, particularly in the first year when most stay in halls. 

Just checked, maintenance grant £1,500, accommodation costs £2,440.

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I’ll share my true life experience of this.

Son went to university. Government paid tuition fees in full as long as parental income was less than 100k, otherwise a percentage contribution was made for each £1k over that.
Was grateful for that when compared with the UK  ( some might do well to bear that in mind when continually slagging off “Tynpotwald”) who require tuition fees to be paid, possibly by way of a student loan.

All other costs, maintenance etc borne by we parents.

I’m not moaning just sharing my experience.

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12 hours ago, Zarley said:

The island offers free nursing training (mental health and adult) which includes a bursary. 

I went along to a nursing course open evening at Keyll Darree this past November with an interested family member.

My jaw dropped when we were told that one of the reasons the nursing courses are so popular is because you can use your degree to work in many countries around the world. 

There is no requirement to work on-island after graduation. So a free course, with a bursary, and you don't have to "give back" by working here and contributing to Manx society.

There is a residency requirement to gain a place on these courses, so why can't they implement an after-graduation residency requirement? 

Well if you think about it, nursing students are supposed to spend half their time working  "in practice supported by a range of healthcare professionals" and it doesn't seem to be unreasonable to pay people something for doing a job.  Apprentices get paid and so did student nurses under the old system.  Not very much, but then neither are the bursaries.  And other places have bursaries as well - England scrapped them in 2015 and then was forced to reintroduce them because of the effect it had on recruitment.

This also puts the 'become a nurse and see the world' sales pitch in context.  Again apprentices and student nurses weren't tied down to a particular place, why should anyone else be?  But it's something that might attract people to study on-Island and in reality most people don't take up the opportunity anyway.  And we don't object if those educated elsewhere with other place's taxpayer money come to work here.

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Jason Moorehouse is calling for a ‘housing bond’ for people starting out on the rental ladder. He comments that a former student of his had to find £2000 to pay for deposit, rent and utilities in a private rental. In all fairness this situation isn’t unique to the Isle of Man, it’s common in the UK to take rent, deposits up front, and tenants have to pay for utilities. Does Mr Moorehouse think that landlords shouldn’t ask for deposits? 
 

Whilst I appreciate it is difficult for any couple wanting to set up their first home and need to come up with the funds, perhaps people need to start saving for a deposit, rent etc, rather like buying a home, you need a deposit, proof of income/affordability to service the mortgage etc. 

I don’t know if Mr Moorehouse wants IOMG to provide financial assistance? They do if, your are on Job Seekers Allowance or Income Support. If you haven’t had a budgeting loan before and qualify, you can get help for the deposit and gas deposit of £250. The Salvation Army provides help and Support. Or maybe the Credit Union could help (providing they meet the criteria). 

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