Jump to content

World Holocaust Day 27 January 2022


John Wright
 Share

Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, Will Halsall said:

Back on topic,with references to Hutchinson Camp, I found this an interesting read this morning:

https://www.newstatesman.com/culture/books/2022/01/deplorable-things-have-happened-inside-britains-second-world-war-internment-camps

 

Didn't happen here, apparently. Coincidently, this article appeared in the Guardian this morning. A good read with a brew...

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/feb/01/when-britain-imprisoned-refugees-second-world-war-internment-camps

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 1/28/2022 at 8:08 PM, New Broom said:
Holocaust survivors are virtually unanimous that the most shocking aspect of their experience was the silence and apathy of the population whilst those horrifying events took place. They frequently say that far from it happening ‘never again’ that genocide can all too easily happen again, because we have not learned the lessons of history. As we tragically saw in Cambodia, Rwanda, Bosnia and Darfur.
 
The steps to genocide are invariably the same and start with the marginalising of one section of society. Then progress to vilification, and so on until murder is reached. Genocide survivors are all too aware that we are going down this path again with our attitude towards the unvaccinated. Anyone who doubts that could listen to the recent speech by Vera Sharav.
 
Vera Sharav was a child who survived the holocaust in Germany - her father was killed in Auschwitz. She knows what she is talking about. Last Sunday she spoke at a rally in Brussels about the imposition of vaccine mandates and the way that history is repeating itself. Other genocide survivors have said the same. In Germany a protester against mandatory vaccination law recited the speech Vera gave and was promptly taken into Police custody. These are the times we are living in. That protester was far from alone:
 
 
Vera’s speech is below. Because of censorship it is sadly only available on Telegram. It is compelling:
 
 
Many are aware of the dangers. Unfortunately many more believe genocide cannot happen again. They are wrong. In Canada, their truckers’ union - who say their members are 85% vaccinated - certainly are aware of the dangers. For that reason thousands of trucks are blocking the roads, many currently blockading the Canadian parliament buildings in Ottawa. They are supported by well over 10% of the population. This huge protest is barely being reported by the mainstream media - one might wonder why?
 
Gladys refers above to the experiments of Stanley Milgram in 1961. Milgram discovered how absurdly obedient to a supposed authority figure ordinary citizens were willing to be. Even to the extent of being willing to inflict torture on another human being. This is one of the reasons genocide very much can happen again:
 
 
One very significant step towards the holocaust in 1930’s Germany was the belief, propagated by the government and media, that Jewish people were ‘unclean’ and ‘diseased’. It was the adoption of this belief that allowed Hitlers’ thugs to segregate the Jews into the ghetto’s. We know what happened next. Our governments are doing the same again.
 
Some will no doubt find the above far-fetched, others may find it offensive, most will probably find it unbelievable that we are already well down the path to genocide. Vera Sharav does not. Nor do other genocide survivors, who are also warning of the dangers. But without any media publicity. Some are being arrested for doing so. I encourage any that doubt the dangers we are facing to read some history. Soon.

I’ve seen your view on vaccination. What’s your view on alcohol and smoking fags ? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, New Broom said:

Even the BBC now acknowledges that 'only' 17,000 have lost their lives to covid - not the hugely inflated figures they were bombarding us with hourly at the start of the 'pandemic'. Or 'casedemic' to describe it more accurately. The average age of death was 77.8 year - almost identical to current life expectancy ie; covid made no difference. This was known from the outset. The motivation was never safeguarding the population but increasing control. As must now surely be obvious. To some at least.

...

But that's a perfect example of the sort of bollocks I mentioned earlier that covid deniers and anti-vaxers peddle.

First, the figure of 17000 was discussed on the BBC programme More or Less on Friday pm as Chinahand has already mentioned above.  As I had already heard the figure of 17000 from a friend, I was interested to hear the discussion.

To make it easy to understand, lawyers sometimes use the "but for" test to assist in answering questions about causation in law.  So, for example, if you can say that "But for action A event B would not have happened", then you can validly say that action A "caused" event B.  But if event B would have happened anyway without action A, then A did not cause B.

The 17000 refers to deaths where the only thing identified as contributing to or causing death was Covid.  All other covid related deaths include other medical conditions (eg diabetes, athsma etc) which also happened to be present at death.

The point made on More or less was that although those other people had additional conditions over and above covid listed on their death certificates, they almost certainly would not have died from those conditions but for the fact they had caught covid.  Most of them had already reached a ripe old age before covid with those pre-existing conditions. So even though they may have had those other conditions at time of death, it was the covid that killed them, and not the diabetes or athsma etc.  It's quite simple really...

Second, if you have reached the age* of 77.8 by the time you die, then that is not "almost identical" to your current life expectancy.  I can't be bothered checking the exact figures now, but I suspect that a 77 year old can probably expect to live for at least another 8 or 9 years.  So anybody aged 77 who died as a result of catching covid has - on average - lost about 10% of their expected lifespan.  Which sounds like quite a lot to me...

* I thought the average age of the 17000 was - according to ONS - about 80 or 81 and - also according to ONS - that average life expectancy at that age was 90 or 91 depending on whether male or female.

(The really ironic thing is that I'm not somebody who would necessarily dismiss out of hand some of the points you appear to be trying to make.  But as you can't produce either a valid and coherent argument or evidence in support of those points, I can't accept them.  Anyway, back to the topic... )

 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, quilp said:

Didn't happen here, apparently. Coincidently, this article appeared in the Guardian this morning. A good read with a brew...

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/feb/01/when-britain-imprisoned-refugees-second-world-war-internment-camps

 

 

1 hour ago, Will Halsall said:

Cheers Q, I enjoyed reading that over lunch!

I’m looking forward to reading the new book. I’ve read the stuff by David Baddiel, the Connery Chappell “Island of Barbed Wire” and Count Nickolai Giovannelli’s book. Also the articles written by Tom Conti about his father.

I sat with a psychiatrist on a tribunal, for a number of years. He had a perfectly English name. After a sitting ran short I offered to take him back to the airport. He asked, if we had time, to go via Port St Mary Prom. He had a number in mind.

On the way he told me about his mother. She qualified as a Doctor in Vienna just before Anschluss. Escaped with her much younger sister, sent to England by their parents in 1938. Never to see their parents again.

BMA wouldn’t recognise her qualifications. To support herself, and her sister, she found work as a nursing auxilliary. The younger sister studied nursing at a London teaching hospital.

Come 1940 she was arrested, interned in Port St Mary. The younger sister was allowed to stay in London and complete her nursing course.

By mid 1941 there was such a shortage of medically qualified personnel that she was released, the BMA relented, she worked as a Doctor in London through the war, and then as a GP.

She stayed in contact with the owners of the property she was billeted at for the rest of her life, exchanging letters and cards.

We found her aliens landing and registration form at the Manx Museum and a record of her having a pair of shoes repaired at the PtStMary cobblers.

When moral panics create folk devils, all Germans or Italians, caught the wrong side of international borders at outbreak of war, are treated with suspicion. Takes time to sort out the goodies from the baddies.

The Island, for many, was a much better place than they might have ended up, and incarceration was comparatively benign and short.

Whats worrying is that we are in a repeat cycle, much worse, in how we treat current refugees, especially those of different skin hue or religious sect.

 

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, John Wright said:

 

I’m looking forward to reading the new book. I’ve read the stuff by David Baddiel, the Connery Chappell “Island of Barbed Wire” and Count Nickolai Giovannelli’s book. Also the articles written by Tom Conti about his father.

I sat with a psychiatrist on a tribunal, for a number of years. He had a perfectly English name. After a sitting ran short I offered to take him back to the airport. He asked, if we had time, to go via Port St Mary Prom. He had a number in mind.

On the way he told me about his mother. She qualified as a Doctor in Vienna just before Anschluss. Escaped with her much younger sister, sent to England by their parents in 1938. Never to see their parents again.

BMA wouldn’t recognise her qualifications. To support herself, and her sister, she found work as a nursing auxilliary. The younger sister studied nursing at a London teaching hospital.

Come 1940 she was arrested, interned in Port St Mary. The younger sister was allowed to stay in London and complete her nursing course.

By mid 1941 there was such a shortage of medically qualified personnel that she was released, the BMA relented, she worked as a Doctor in London through the war, and then as a GP.

She stayed in contact with the owners of the property she was billeted at for the rest of her life, exchanging letters and cards.

We found her aliens landing and registration form at the Manx Museum and a record of her having a pair of shoes repaired at the PtStMary cobblers.

When moral panics create folk devils, all Germans or Italians, caught the wrong side of international borders at outbreak of war, are treated with suspicion. Takes time to sort out the goodies from the baddies.

The Island, for many, was a much better place than they might have ended up, and incarceration was comparatively benign and short.

Whats worrying is that we are in a repeat cycle, much worse, in how we treat current refugees, especially those of different skin hue or religious sect.

 

Thank you John, what an interesting story, I would be interested to know which property she was billeted at (on PSM Prom?), particularly as a PSM lad. 

I read the 'Island of Barbed Wire' shortly after it was published - very interesting it was too. My book of the moment is 'Looking for trouble' the memoirs of Virginia Cowles. She touches on her experiences of these human traits as a correspondent during the Spanish Civil War and WW2.

I agree totally, it's extremely worrying:  Bosnia and Herzegovina is brewing at the moment, and the genocides of the Balkans during the 90s seem to be of little deterrent. The world is a dark place! 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

28 minutes ago, Will Halsall said:

Thank you John, what an interesting story, I would be interested to know which property she was billeted at (on PSM Prom?), particularly as a PSM lad. 

I read the 'Island of Barbed Wire' shortly after it was published - very interesting it was too. My book of the moment is 'Looking for trouble' the memoirs of Virginia Cowles. She touches on her experiences of these human traits as a correspondent during the Spanish Civil War and WW2.

I agree totally, it's extremely worrying:  Bosnia and Herzegovina is brewing at the moment, and the genocides of the Balkans during the 90s seem to be of little deterrent. The world is a dark place! 

The refugee was Dr Luise Beer  born Vienna 25 August 1912. The House was Cronk Airh, and the owners were Quine’s, I think.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Many years ago, the late 80s, I had to have a private medical.  I was living in Surrey at the time and the doctor was a retired GP who did medicals as a boost to his pension, I suppose.  He was very elderly and spoke with an almost stereotypical guttural German accent.  

In chatting, I said I was from the IOM and he said that he was interned in the Sefton during WWII.  He didn't wax lyrical about his time there but he did smile about the coincidence. 

He also went on to tell me about how his son, then in his 60s, also suffered from migraines (which was the reason I had to have a medical) and that some foods triggered them which he advised his son to avoid, then said " but you cannot tell your children anything"! 

 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/1/2022 at 9:56 AM, quilp said:

Didn't happen here, apparently. Coincidently, this article appeared in the Guardian this morning. A good read with a brew...

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/feb/01/when-britain-imprisoned-refugees-second-world-war-internment-camps

There's an online talk by the author on Monday at 8 pm:

https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/simon-parkin-the-island-of-extraordinary-captives-tickets-252157970277

  • Thanks 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

For those interested in some extremely diverse characters that were interned at Hutchinson's Camp at the beginning of WW2, this YouTube clip from the author Simon Parkin (Mon 7th Feb) is well worth watching. Some superb photo's and videos.

Thank you @Roger Mexico  I enjoyed watching that on Mon eve 👋

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

Well, I’ve read the Island of Extraordinary Captives. About to start Barbed Wire University.

All I can say about Extraordinary Captives is that it’s very poorly written. The research, despite a huge bibliography, is hit and miss, and there are some obvious howlers. It jumps around. Lots of extraneous padding. It’s a closely typed 475 pages.

I started checking, after a friend, also reading, questioned if you could see the Harbour from Hutchinson Square ( you can ), the ferry ( you can ). 

Later the author says one of his subjects sailed from Liverpool at the start of his internment. I need to check the dates the Island service was swapped out to Fleetwood for strategic reasons.

Further he refers to a Manx Politician as EW Farnger ( prominent Advocate, Douglas Councillor and MHK EW Fargher of Dickinsons ) ok, typo and poor proof reading.

Then he goes on to say that Ireland was visible in the distance from Hutchinson Square.  I nearly gave up. I won’t list the rest of the myriad errors.

I persevered. I didn’t relate to the people he’s writing about. Even his main biographical character, Peter Fleischman, is still a cardboard cut out enigma by the time I’d turned the final page.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...