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Prayers (Pray for the Island)


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1 hour ago, Manx17 said:

Why would you want to celebrate Christmas, if your not a Christian do you not find it hypocritical?  I think it’s wrong. If you have put yourself forward to make a better island and your first call is to change Tynwald tradition. What makes them so important? Was it in their manifesto whilst knocking on doors wanting votes? 

 

Christmas is nothing more than a Christianisation of a series of more ancient pagan festivals. Saturnalia or the winter solstice being the most well known. You can very easily and in fact do celebrate Christmas without giving any real thought to what Christianity would have you believe it’s all about. Trees, Yule logs, gift giving, mistletoe, feasting etc etc are all derived from ancient pagan customs and practices. Many years ago when the church first stepped foot on these lands they found it incredibly difficult to convert the population to a belief in their new god. Their answer to this was to appropriate the locals various customs and beliefs and Christianise them in the hope that rather than replacing one belief system with another immediately. They would instead go through a more comfortable transition where they could keep their practices and customs but the focus would not be on the ancient gods but rather their one true god. If you visit the various ancient churches found around the U.K. you will find various engravings on the walls, wood, seating etc etc done by those very early local “converts” to allow them to pay lip service to the church and continue to worship the gods of their land.

Christmas wasn’t the only festival that was appropriated either. Easter was originally the celebration of Ostara which is where the word Easter comes from. You have Halloween which the Catholics appropriated to All Hallows’ Eve. New Year’s Day, St Johns Eve and Valentines Day to name but a few. Birthdays while not a Christian event, have their roots and derive from an ancient pagan custom also.

This is the reason why Jehovah’s Witnesses do not celebrate any of these holidays. They do not want to engage in what are essentially pagan practices.

So, to say that observing Christmas is hypocritical is absolutely nonsensical. There is nothing truly Christian about it beyond a few carols and a vague claim regarding a manger and a virgin birth. The latter of which I am convinced was Mary’s way of getting around that one night stand she had with the fisherman’s son nine months prior to Jesus birth.

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15 hours ago, Passing Time said:

This is what you get when people vote in unemployable people. There's a small group of MHK's who could be useful but there are a bigger group who are a total waste of space. It's been said many times, reduce the number of MHK'S/MLC's and go for quality over quantity


LegCo by their voting prevented an amendment agreed by a majority of Keys members going though in Cannan's extraordinary Tynwald last week I believe 

The future of this appointed rather than democratically elected body should now be considered

Sometimes the more forward looking MLCs put forward considered amendments to parliamentary business

Sometimes they are a block on progress

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2 hours ago, Manx17 said:

Why would you want to celebrate Christmas, if your not a Christian do you not find it hypocritical?  I think it’s wrong. If you have put yourself forward to make a better island and your first call is to change Tynwald tradition. What makes them so important? Was it in their manifesto whilst knocking on doors wanting votes? 

 

Christmas and Christianity separated a long time ago. For most Christmas is a celebration of family and friends now. 

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2 hours ago, Declan said:

 

Changing Tynwald traditions (although not neccessarily this one) is the first step to a better Island. 

If that's the case then why are our elected politicians so reluctant to even discuss it? 

You would have thought a first step to a better island would be a better motivation for a politician than increasing your own comfort for a few minutes once a month.

What was the outcome of the debate?

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I just wonder, if they don't ask for gods forgiveness before a sitting, who are they going to ask forgiveness from, for their actions. 

What about the gargoyles sitting above Juan,will they be removed, as I can't see what other use they are.

Also I know the difference between god and Juan, god doesn't think he is the speaker when visiting Keys.

Edited by Holte End
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It's amusing to read all the comments about 'haven't they got better things to be discussing' and then realising how much the same people want to discuss this issue.

I didn't know this was up for discussion until Thursday, so it's hardly taken any time so far. Of course, opinion is polarised so it will probably lead to a lengthy Keys debate before being voted down on Tuesday, which will be a good result for democracy even though I'll be on the losing side. But it's Sunday so I'll not write more in case I am smitten by a jealous and prescriptive god.

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14 minutes ago, Stu Peters said:

It's amusing to read all the comments about 'haven't they got better things to be discussing' and then realising how much the same people want to discuss this issue.

I didn't know this was up for discussion until Thursday, so it's hardly taken any time so far. Of course, opinion is polarised so it will probably lead to a lengthy Keys debate before being voted down on Tuesday, which will be a good result for democracy even though I'll be on the losing side. But it's Sunday so I'll not write more in case I am smitten by a jealous and prescriptive god.

I think the difference is, we're not getting paid £70k of public money to be doing other things at the time.

A good result for democracy would be you discussing some meaningful modernisation for Tynwald moving towards a true democracy, rather than bickering between yourselves about your own comfort.

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2 hours ago, Freggyragh said:

Who put this in their manifesto then? I don't remember it being discussed in the very recent election. Haven't you lot got election promises to attend to first?

Didn't give it much of a thought whilst campaigning, although a couple of people asked on the doorstep if I went to church and I probably lost their votes by saying 'no'. And election promises concern more weighty issues which won't be resolved in one sitting.

2 hours ago, A fool and his money..... said:

I think the difference is, we're not getting paid £70k of public money to be doing other things at the time.

A good result for democracy would be you discussing some meaningful modernisation for Tynwald moving towards a true democracy, rather than bickering between yourselves about your own comfort.

I can multitask. I know I'm a bloke and we're not famous for it, but it's possible. And whatever I do, you and others will resent that I'm getting paid to do it, which I'm resigned to.

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3 hours ago, Freggyragh said:

Who put this in their manifesto then? I don't remember it being discussed in the very recent election. Haven't you lot got election promises to attend to first?

But did many MHK's include much in their manifesto's beyond general themes. Rather like the current government most said things which most would agree with like we need to grow the economy, cut waste and the size of government, improve health care and education. Generally there were few specifics. Since SP is on this thread this is a link to his Manifesto  https://www.gov.im/media/1374163/3501_stu_peters_a5_4pp_manifesto_18aug21_proof2.pdf 

I appreciate if you go into links on his facebook page or website there may be links where he goes into specifics but like the majority of manifestos it is difficult to find many specific policies ideas beyond the general aims. That is not having a go at SP. They are generally all like that. 

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1 hour ago, Stu Peters said:

 

 And whatever I do, you and others will resent that I'm getting paid to do it, which I'm resigned to.

That's not true, at least for me. I've complemented you on here on your efforts to keep your constituents up to speed with your decision making via your VLOG, despite completely disagreeing with the decisions you explained, that's democracy.

My personal opinion is that MHK'S are paid too much for the job they do, but I'd far rather be proved wrong by them demonstrating  their value to the people of the island rather them taking a pay cut to be paid what they are worth.

4 months since the election, we're all paying a lot more to prop up the profits of a multi-million pound gas company, we're a few million down on the Liverpool deal,the prom still isn't finished, and what's been achieved? 

We still have no move towards renewable energy, 13000 people waiting to lag their loft, a minimum wage far short of what it costs to live here and nothing done about the housing crisis which was so urgent in almost every manifesto.

Forgive me if I'm not too worried about whether you feel comfortable at the beginning of your monthly sittings.

Your move Stu......

ETA the above might be a bit harsh, it's not completey directed at you personally, I appreciate it wasn't you that suggested the idea initially, and that there's only so much one person can achieve, and respect you for standing and becoming elected. A a general observation I think it's fair though.

 

 

Edited by A fool and his money.....
Balance
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2 hours ago, A fool and his money..... said:

4 months since the election, we're all paying a lot more to prop up the profits of a multi-million pound gas company, we're a few million down on the Liverpool deal,the prom still isn't finished, and what's been achieved? 

We still have no move towards renewable energy, 13000 people waiting to lag their loft, a minimum wage far short of what it costs to live here and nothing done about the housing crisis which was so urgent in almost every manifesto.

Gas supply is outside of IOMG or Manx Gas control and is an international problem - all the more reason to exploit Crogga reserves. MG is no longer making big (possibly any) profits, unlike in the past.

Liverpool is a cluster we've inherited with few serious options other than pay up and get it done.

Prom is a disgrace and has eaten four ministers, but it needed doing and the public had input into the plans and process. I'm not defending it, I think its an omnishambles.

We're being pushed hard into renewables, so its happening, but we've got an expensive gas power station for the next decade to pay for first.

The Minister has apologised for the delays in loft lagging and is working on a solution. Minimum wage is going up, Chris Thomas is working diligently on the housing crisis.

Again, nobody has a magic wand and these issues won't be resolved overnight. You forgot to mention healthcare which is also in crisis, but people have (finally) admitted that the system is broken and are taking steps to sort it out.

Politics is like a duck...calm on the surface, talking about prayers, but paddling furiously under the surface to get somewhere.

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7 hours ago, hissingsid said:

I think it is next week after all they have not got anything more pressing to worry about.    The real tragedy is that we have got nearly five years more of these clowns in power.

They may have more pressing things to worry about, but as far as items on the Keys/Tynwald agenda go they haven't got much to talk about  There's no new primary legislation[1] and if you look at the agenda for Tuesday, apart from questions, this is the only item being discussed.   This isn't really the fault of the current Keys, but a legacy from the last one.

It's also worth pointing out that it's not a whim of Caine's, but based on a Report produced by the appropriate Committee about whether the Keys should continue to have a Chaplain (the post only dates back to 1863 and hasn't always been held by a CofE clergyman) and what the alternatives, if any to Prayers should be.

 

[1]  LegCo hasn't met separately since the Election except for three very short formal meetings of 26 minutes.  In total.

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