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3 hours ago, Shake me up Judy said:

It's rare that I disagree with you Non-Believer, but I think Boris gets it. He knows his history and I think we'll see a big escalation in the sanctions today. Biden is the big problem now. He's barely sentient. 

Johnson and the current tory admin are utterly compromised by Russian money. That’s why the report into Russian election interfering was never released, the sanctions are so weak, Evgeny Alexandrovich Lebedev was appointed to the house of lords… etc

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3 minutes ago, Mr. Sausages said:

Johnson and the current tory admin are utterly compromised by Russian money. That’s why the report into Russian election interfering was never released, the sanctions are so weak, Evgeny Alexandrovich Lebedev was appointed to the house of lords… etc

It all started during the Blair years.

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18 minutes ago, The Phantom said:

Err, and China?  

To be honest I don't think any European/US sanctions are going to make much of a difference to Russia. 

It's just going to push Russia closer to China for everything and I'm sure nothing bad will happen when they get together.  

China will be watching the world reaction to gauge what they can get away with in Taiwan. 

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I think much of this problem is the fault of the West.

I can understand why Russia would not want the Ukraine in NATO and it is only hypocrisy for it to be seen as a problem of self determination and unjustified aggression.

The United States has made sure that no European or other Great Powers could have a strong economic influence or military presence in the Americas. I am thinking of the Monroe Doctrine and all the interventions of the United States to keep out Soviet influence or topple unfriendly.

If a similar situation arose with Mexico, or even a nation state further south, the United States simply would not allow it.

Yet here we have a country on Russia's border that would be joining an alliance that was designed for defence against (and for offence) against the Soviet Union.

The alliance should have been ended in the early 90s.

And it has been America that has beating the war drum here.

Maybe I am missing something but I thinks the idea of NATO expansion is completely bonkers.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Andy Onchan said:

This is the end of Putin, politically. He's now persona non-grata with most of the world. His only support comes from similar unstable leaders like Lukashenko.

I don't think he gives a shit.

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26 minutes ago, La_Dolce_Vita said:

I think much of this problem is the fault of the West.

I can understand why Russia would not want the Ukraine in NATO and it is only hypocrisy for it to be seen as a problem of self determination and unjustified aggression.

Yet here we have a country on Russia's border that would be joining an alliance that was designed for defence against (and for offence) against the Soviet Union.

When was the last time NATO was aggressive towards Russia (or the Soviet Union/USSR)?  Don't forget that Russia annexed the Crimea two years ago and hardly anyone batted an eyelid.  Russia also has a habit of having puppet states such as Belarus to do their bidding as well.

The Ukraine would feel pretty justified in requesting membership of NATO given that the country border both Russia and Belarus.  

Putin is also saying he doesn't want a NATO member right on the border with Russia, however, if he does occupy Ukraine then he will have exactly that.  Doesn't make much sense does it?

 

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25 minutes ago, La_Dolce_Vita said:

I think much of this problem is the fault of the West.

I can understand why Russia would not want the Ukraine in NATO and it is only hypocrisy for it to be seen as a problem of self determination and unjustified aggression.

The United States has made sure that no European or other Great Powers could have a strong economic influence or military presence in the Americas. I am thinking of the Monroe Doctrine and all the interventions of the United States to keep out Soviet influence or topple unfriendly.

If a similar situation arose with Mexico, or even a nation state further south, the United States simply would not allow it.

Yet here we have a country on Russia's border that would be joining an alliance that was designed for defence against (and for offence) against the Soviet Union.

The alliance should have been ended in the early 90s.

And it has been America that has beating the war drum here.

Maybe I am missing something but I thinks the idea of NATO expansion is completely bonkers.

 

 

 

You are really saying if a peaceful democratic society wished to join a security alliance a non-peaceful non-democatic neighbour has a veto on this. 

Before getting into the nitty gritty of who is and isn't a democracy or peaceful country let's just start with the general principles of what is and is not bonkers. 

Putin is antidemocratic. He wishes to use violence to install a compliant autocrat who will ignore the democratic will and follow Putin's dictats. Belarus is a near perfect example. 

Opposing that isn't bonkers. Ensuring deterrence against that isn't bonkers. It is very sad deterrence has failed and possibly that is NATO's policy failure as Putin pushed in Chechnya, Georgia, Crimea etc without a sufficient western response to his use of violence to enforce his geopolitical sphere. 

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1 hour ago, Roxanne said:

And Trump. Don’t forget Trump. 

It wouldn't have got this far if he'd still been in charge, say what you like he was a good peacemaker. Biden is not.

I'm just going to listen to The Orb until this is all over. 

Edited by 2bees
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