Public Sector Pay Rises

[Youaintseenme]

4 hours ago, John Wright said:

https://www.judgments.im/content/ET 17-40 Trueman v KS Restaurants small.pdf

para 183 refers to a discretionary pension scheme, run by the franchisee and being for salaried rather than hourly paid staff.

And most of the staff are on hourly rates, only the managers are salaried and so most of the staff don’t see any pension .

Banker is right, outside of government and the finance industry most people on less than 30k don’t have a pension unless they pay it themselves.  Whether the accept it or not teachers are on an extremely good benefits package.  I think most of them would be surprised to learn how many people don’t get any payment from their employer if they are off sick for example.

 

[manxman1980]

Those of you griping about private sector pay and benefits should be starting to realise the benefits of Trade Union representation and collective bargaining.

Instead you have been convinced that trade unions are communist organisations out to destroy and undermine industry.

The reality is that their aim is to protect their members rights and to seek better terms and conditions for those members.

[Hoops]

7 hours ago, Youaintseenme said:

And most of the staff are on hourly rates, only the managers are salaried and so most of the staff don’t see any pension .

Banker is right, outside of government and the finance industry most people on less than 30k don’t have a pension unless they pay it themselves.  Whether the accept it or not teachers are on an extremely good benefits package.  I think most of them would be surprised to learn how many people don’t get any payment from their employer if they are off sick for example.

 

I agree, my brother-in-law, a teacher, keeps talking about qutting, but then he see's the t&c's on offer elsewhere. And yes, he can be bloody annoying when he's carping on, but then he's used to a captive audience. I've never been offered a pension and have never been able to afford a private one, so do worry about my future.

That said, the fight should be to better everyone's conditions, rather then trying to hold teacher's down.

Don't get me started on the 'kin tax cap, you can never a happy society that isn't a just society, and all that.

[manxman1980]

@Banker you may laugh but you would take it my comment more seriously if you knew my background is in HR for private sector companies.

Jokes on you if you think you are able to negotiate better terms and conditions as an individual.

[Ham_N_Eggs]

8 hours ago, Youaintseenme said:

And most of the staff are on hourly rates, only the managers are salaried and so most of the staff don’t see any pension .

Banker is right, outside of government and the finance industry most people on less than 30k don’t have a pension unless they pay it themselves.  Whether the accept it or not teachers are on an extremely good benefits package.  I think most of them would be surprised to learn how many people don’t get any payment from their employer if they are off sick for example.

 

The demonisation of Unions from the late 70's onwards is one of the biggest tragedies to low paid workers rights. Collective bargaining works.

[SimonBradshaw]

On 5/12/2022 at 7:48 PM, Bandits said:

But teachers get 6 weeks off in the summer and finish at 3:30. How can you compare to a 40 hour week? 

 

On 5/12/2022 at 7:52 PM, Meoir Shee said:

OK, you win.

As a quick comparison, Junior Trader at Newfield, starts on £24k at 18, newly qualified Maths teacher on £25.7k at age 22 min.  But teachers get more holidays, I wonder why there is a shortage?

https://newfield.co.im/jobs/current-vacancies/?fbclid=IwAR3qxPpIvqz1YFA0AJeyXHX5JFUnwUR08orwVlev6kHzs1kx9VsSVDQW6dU

https://services.gov.im/job-search/viewjob?Id=174653

There is a misconception re. teachers and holidays that most (including teachers) are probably not fully aware of. Teachers are contracted to work 195 days per calendar year with directed time set at 1265 hours plus a requirement of additional work to reasonably discharge their duties. They receive paid holidays at a statuary rate. All other time not working is not paid holiday - however, their salary is applied equally over 12 calendar months so this gives the impression of more paid holiday than other professions. Most contracts of employment will refer to holiday entitlement (which is often something a little more than statutory entitlement) but teacher contracts and subsequent terms and conditions (known as the burgundy book) do not refer to holiday entitlement. The result is that teachers don’t get 13 weeks paid holiday but there paid holiday sits inside school closer periods but isn’t specifically identified.

[Bandits]

39 minutes ago, SimonBradshaw said:

 

There is a misconception re. teachers and holidays that most (including teachers) are probably not fully aware of. Teachers are contracted to work 195 days per calendar year with directed time set at 1265 hours plus a requirement of additional work to reasonably discharge their duties. They receive paid holidays at a statuary rate. All other time not working is not paid holiday - however, their salary is applied equally over 12 calendar months so this gives the impression of more paid holiday than other professions. Most contracts of employment will refer to holiday entitlement (which is often something a little more than statutory entitlement) but teacher contracts and subsequent terms and conditions (known as the burgundy book) do not refer to holiday entitlement. The result is that teachers don’t get 13 weeks paid holiday but there paid holiday sits inside school closer periods but isn’t specifically identified.

However you want to dress it up. You don’t work for 6 weeks in the summer. You still get paid. 

[SimonBradshaw]

4 minutes ago, Bandits said:

However you want to dress it up. You don’t work for 6 weeks in the summer. You still get paid. 

I think we will have to disagree. This isn’t a statement re. workload but the reality of employment contract. Teachers receive monthly 1/12th of their salary (which only includes the statuary number of paid holidays under employment law). You could apply most of the statuary holidays during the summer for arguments sake - but this would still mean that during a weeks closure in October / November they are unpaid for that week - its just the pay has been spread out equally across the year. It doesn’t generally apply to teachers but pro-rata contracted employment often means employees get paid across more days / weeks / months than they actually work so it seems they attract holiday pay during a period they aren’t actually receiving it. So with term-time only support staff in schools and colleges it can look like employees are receiving holidays above and beyond the norm, they aren’t and their salary is proportionally lower than that of a person working a full year with normal holiday entitlement. I’d also make the point that an argument is sometimes put that teachers should work more weeks - this might be a reasonable request but the contract salary would have to be increased accordingly (which would also mean a typical additional 22-24% on-cost for the employer). 

[doc.fixit]

Based on the above, if teachers are really miffed about their salaries would it be fair to say they could work at something else in their unpaid breaks from their main occupation to make up what they perceive as a good income?

[Banker]

20 minutes ago, doc.fixit said:

Based on the above, if teachers are really miffed about their salaries would it be fair to say they could work at something else in their unpaid breaks from their main occupation to make up what they perceive as a good income?

Yes, could work summer months & take their holidays in the other 7 weeks off!!

[0bserver]

24 minutes ago, doc.fixit said:

Based on the above, if teachers are really miffed about their salaries would it be fair to say they could work at something else in their unpaid breaks from their main occupation to make up what they perceive as a good income?

 

3 minutes ago, Banker said:

Yes, could work summer months & take their holidays in the other 7 weeks off!!

Yes! KFC are recruiting and McDonald's are always hiring. Some real world employment would be a valuable experience for many of them.

[Youaintseenme]

4 hours ago, SimonBradshaw said:

 

There is a misconception re. teachers and holidays that most (including teachers) are probably not fully aware of. Teachers are contracted to work 195 days per calendar year with directed time set at 1265 hours plus a requirement of additional work to reasonably discharge their duties. They receive paid holidays at a statuary rate. All other time not working is not paid holiday - however, their salary is applied equally over 12 calendar months so this gives the impression of more paid holiday than other professions. Most contracts of employment will refer to holiday entitlement (which is often something a little more than statutory entitlement) but teacher contracts and subsequent terms and conditions (known as the burgundy book) do not refer to holiday entitlement. The result is that teachers don’t get 13 weeks paid holiday but there paid holiday sits inside school closer periods but isn’t specifically identified.

So are we saying that there pay could actually be expressed as a higher annual salary and pro rated?

I am not sure that helps the teachers argument to be honest.

Whichever way you dress it up they have an insanely good package compared to the vast majority of other people.

Say my salary is 30k and I work 37.5 hours with an additional unpaid 10 each week, no pension and no sick pay with 20 days holiday a year.

Would I swap that for a teachers job (I can’t stand kids, but I am just making a point) with teachers benefits and hours for a five k drop to 25? 
 

What do you think?

[Bandits]

7 hours ago, SimonBradshaw said:

I think we will have to disagree. This isn’t a statement re. workload but the reality of employment contract. 

Blah blah blah. You get 6 weeks leave in the summer. You still get paid. 

[DrunkenMonkey]

5 hours ago, doc.fixit said:

Based on the above, if teachers are really miffed about their salaries would it be fair to say they could work at something else in their unpaid breaks from their main occupation to make up what they perceive as a good income?

I have teacher friends who actually do this. They work washing dishes, waiting tables and one even spent a summer working on an ice cream van. Even working 40 hours a week for an additional 6-10 weeks, they still could not afford to continue living here and have since left the island.

[doc.fixit]

Well I certainly used to do it. I drove wagons in some of the holidays.