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IndyRef2 here we go again


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Posted (edited)
On 7/3/2022 at 12:04 PM, jackwhite said:

No I don't, because it's not the case. If you read into the Barnett formula that statement isn't accurate at all.

 

Are you sure about that?  There appear to be several articles on the fullfact website that appear to confirm that, in general, Scotland is on balance a net recipient of UK government funding and that England is the major net contributor of that UK funding.

For example:  Scotland: Tax and spending - Full Fact;  HS2 will not cost Scotland £17 billion - Full Fact;  England hasn’t ‘kept’ £450 billion of Scottish taxes since 2001 - Full Fact;  BBC Question Time: factchecked - Full Fact; and several others...

And in particular:

“Scotland is largely insulated from the consequences of the substantial gap between the government revenues it generates and the government expenditure undertaken in or on behalf of Scotland. This is because the Scottish government gets most of its funding in the form of a block grant from the UK government, and the UK government uses revenues from across the UK to pay for non-devolved items like social security benefits and defence.”

 

On 7/3/2022 at 12:04 PM, jackwhite said:

...but they still have to give it to England ultimately and don't get any more benefit from it. Due to this they can't realistically do anything meaningful with tax levels.

Sorry, but what does this mean?

Taxes raised in Scotland and for which the devolved Scottish government is responsible for stay in Scotland, don't they?

And as I understand it, income tax in Scotland is collected by the UK govt via HMRC, but Scotland's share of that tax revenue goes back to Scotland for them to spend.

Scotland then gets their share of other taxes like VAT and NI back via the block grant, funded by the rest of the UK (and the main funder of that is England).

As a resident of England I can't wait to get rid of Scotland*.  But I don't think it will happen as I think the Scottish electorate are canny enough to realise that the SNP are a single issue party and that if Scotland didn't remain a part of the UK then the SNP would likely ruin the country.  

 

*  I say that and I'm half Scottish...

Edited by Ghost Ship
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19 hours ago, Ghost Ship said:

Are you sure about that?  There appear to be several articles on the fullfact website that appear to confirm that, in general, Scotland is on balance a net recipient of UK government funding and that England is the major net contributor of that UK funding.

For example:  Scotland: Tax and spending - Full Fact;  HS2 will not cost Scotland £17 billion - Full Fact;  England hasn’t ‘kept’ £450 billion of Scottish taxes since 2001 - Full Fact;  BBC Question Time: factchecked - Full Fact; and several others...

And in particular:

“Scotland is largely insulated from the consequences of the substantial gap between the government revenues it generates and the government expenditure undertaken in or on behalf of Scotland. This is because the Scottish government gets most of its funding in the form of a block grant from the UK government, and the UK government uses revenues from across the UK to pay for non-devolved items like social security benefits and defence.”

 

Sorry, but what does this mean?

Taxes raised in Scotland and for which the devolved Scottish government is responsible for stay in Scotland, don't they?

And as I understand it, income tax in Scotland is collected by the UK govt via HMRC, but Scotland's share of that tax revenue goes back to Scotland for them to spend.

Scotland then gets their share of other taxes like VAT and NI back via the block grant, funded by the rest of the UK (and the main funder of that is England).

As a resident of England I can't wait to get rid of Scotland*.  But I don't think it will happen as I think the Scottish electorate are canny enough to realise that the SNP are a single issue party and that if Scotland didn't remain a part of the UK then the SNP would likely ruin the country.  

 

*  I say that and I'm half Scottish...

You're relying on one website

It’s especially worrying when Full Fact seem to include errors on their own website. The organisation claims to have a board of trustees with “members from the three main UK-wide political parties”. There is a Labour Peer (Baroness Janet Royall), a Lib-Dem peer, (Lord John Sharkey) but their former Conservative Party member, Lord Richard Inglewood no longer sits as a Tory. When I asked Full Fact who their Conservative member was they pointed out that one of their trustees donates to the Conservative Party and that they have “representatives of different political parties” on their board. This is different wording which allows for the fact that they don’t, or aren’t sure whether they have a Conservative Party member amongst them.

 

If you really want to go into it I can but yes I'm sure.

 

 

As for your second part.

 

Currently 32.4% of taxation collected in Scotland is in the form of taxes under the control of the Scottish parliament and 67.6% of all taxation collected in Scotland goes directly to the UK government in taxation that is a reserved matter of the UK parliament.[1]

 

The actual 'powers' allow them to deviate the income tax rate by up to 3p either plus or minus. So they can't do anything meaningful with tax. Even if they did, they get no real benefit from it. Still most taxation powers are controlled by Westminster. 2012 they were granted further powers for stamp duty and landfill tax with income tax rates reduced 10p. The Barnett formula was reduced by the same. Scotland was then told to chance the income tax rates to replace lost revenue if it wished. As can quite clearly be seen by all this, they are not in control of their taxation rates neither do 'taxes raised in Scotland stay in Scotland'.

You can't wait to get rid of your 'half countrymen'? Make no bones, a lot of them would be delighted to 'get rid' of people like you too. I hope your Scottish half if ashamed of your views. Especially when you talk about them like that. You either have no connection with the roots or you're just ....well I will leave it to your imagination.

 

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2 minutes ago, jackwhite said:

You're relying on one website

It’s especially worrying when Full Fact seem to include errors on their own website. The organisation claims to have a board of trustees with “members from the three main UK-wide political parties”. There is a Labour Peer (Baroness Janet Royall), a Lib-Dem peer, (Lord John Sharkey) but their former Conservative Party member, Lord Richard Inglewood no longer sits as a Tory. When I asked Full Fact who their Conservative member was they pointed out that one of their trustees donates to the Conservative Party and that they have “representatives of different political parties” on their board. This is different wording which allows for the fact that they don’t, or aren’t sure whether they have a Conservative Party member amongst them.

 

If you really want to go into it I can but yes I'm sure.

 

 

As for your second part.

 

Currently 32.4% of taxation collected in Scotland is in the form of taxes under the control of the Scottish parliament and 67.6% of all taxation collected in Scotland goes directly to the UK government in taxation that is a reserved matter of the UK parliament.[1]

 

The actual 'powers' allow them to deviate the income tax rate by up to 3p either plus or minus. So they can't do anything meaningful with tax. Even if they did, they get no real benefit from it. Still most taxation powers are controlled by Westminster. 2012 they were granted further powers for stamp duty and landfill tax with income tax rates reduced 10p. The Barnett formula was reduced by the same. Scotland was then told to chance the income tax rates to replace lost revenue if it wished. As can quite clearly be seen by all this, they are not in control of their taxation rates neither do 'taxes raised in Scotland stay in Scotland'.

You can't wait to get rid of your 'half countrymen'? Make no bones, a lot of them would be delighted to 'get rid' of people like you too. I hope your Scottish half if ashamed of your views. Especially when you talk about them like that. You either have no connection with the roots or you're just ....well I will leave it to your imagination.

 

You may well think  that Scotland is not financially dependent on the rest of the UK ( and from my research I believe they are)

Putting that aside Scotland, as part of the UK, can  bask in the reflected glory of the cultural and sporting achievements from the other Home Nations ( most notably England)

The sum of the parts etc

Independence would jeopardize all that for Scotland. But that’s for them to decide.

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1 hour ago, The Voice of Reason said:

You may well think  that Scotland is not financially dependent on the rest of the UK ( and from my research I believe they are)

Putting that aside Scotland, as part of the UK, can  bask in the reflected glory of the cultural and sporting achievements from the other Home Nations ( most notably England)

The sum of the parts etc

Independence would jeopardize all that for Scotland. But that’s for them to decide.

It's not and if you're going to come in and claim that, please show your working.

Why would Scotland want to 'bask in the reflected glory and sporting achievements' of England? It's comments and ignorance like that that makes most Scots want independence all the more. Besides, which 'achievements' are these? 🤣

So if that's all you have to offer, please sign up as the spokesman for a better together campaign, that way independence is guaranteed.

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Posted (edited)

@jackwhite - ok, let's take your points in reverse order.

In response to a comment from @Ďouglas Peel saying that "... Also Scottish NHS and taxation [my emphasis] is devolved and under Snp control..." you said:

On 7/3/2022 at 12:04 PM, jackwhite said:

... but they still have to give it to England ultimately and don't get any more benefit from it. Due to this they can't realistically do anything meaningful with tax levels.

and I asked you what you meant by that as I didn't think what you were saying was true.

Your non-linked (but apparently from that impeccable, impartial and authorititive work of reference, WikipediaTaxation in Scotland - Wikipedia) appears to confirm my point of view rather than yours.  In fact you even quote it yourself:

1 hour ago, jackwhite said:

... Currently 32.4% of taxation collected in Scotland is in the form of taxes under the control of the Scottish parliament and 67.6% of all taxation collected in Scotland goes directly to the UK government in taxation that is a reserved matter of the UK parliament.[1]

 

So I understand that to mean that 32% of the tax take in Scotland is under Scottish control and stays in Scotland for the Scottish government to spend as it sees fit, and that 68% goes to the UK government, but then - of course - the Scottish government gets back an agreed proportion of that through the existing block grant arrangement.

Perhaps I'm mistaken, but that seems to me to be a far cry from saying - as you did - that taxation revenues raised by the Scottish government ultimately go back to England and that the Scottish government cannot realistically do anything with those revenues.

If I am mistaken, can you give me a better source than you didn't give in your reply above?  (I've already looked at the footnote [1] - from a Scottish government publication! - from the wiki entry and I don't believe that supports your position either.  But maybe I'm wrong.  If so, please provide a reference... )

As regards my first point about the Barnett formula, I'm not sure how your digression into who the trustees of full Fact are answers my point?  But as you seem to be saying that you can answer my point, are you able to disconfirm for me that Scotland is a net beneficiary under the formula and that England is a net contributor?  And can you provide a reference for that proposition?

I'm sorry that you find it necessary to resort to making offensive personal comments about "people like me". 

1 hour ago, jackwhite said:

...You can't wait to get rid of your 'half countrymen'? Make no bones, a lot of them would be delighted to 'get rid' of people like you too. I hope your Scottish half if ashamed of your views. Especially when you talk about them like that. You either have no connection with the roots or you're just ....well I will leave it to your imagination.

My position on this is quite simple and objective, and it's not clouded by misplaced sentiment or emotion.  If the electorate of Scotland vote to leave the UK, I will be quite happy to see the country become independent as I think that that will be in the best interests of the rest of the UK.  There is no point whatsoever in trying to keep an unwilling partner in a political union.  But if I were living in Scotland I would definitely be voting for the country to remain in the UK as I think independence would be a disaster for the country.  (And I think the Scots electorate will reflect that in any referendum... )

*And as Nicola Sturgeon decided at the last referendum that Scots people not resident in Scotland were not eligible to vote, I see no particular reason why I should be ashamed of my views any more than she should.

Edited by Ghost Ship
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32 minutes ago, jackwhite said:

It's not and if you're going to come in and claim that, please show your working.

Why would Scotland want to 'bask in the reflected glory and sporting achievements' of England? It's comments and ignorance like that that makes most Scots want independence all the more. Besides, which 'achievements' are these? 🤣

So if that's all you have to offer, please sign up as the spokesman for a better together campaign, that way independence is guaranteed.

I don’t believe England is better for “ being together”. It subsidies Scotland by dint of history. And is explained by Ghost Ship’s excellent posting above. A burden it seems the English seem to accept.

 

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2 hours ago, The Voice of Reason said:

You may well think  that Scotland is not financially dependent on the rest of the UK ( and from my research I believe they are)

Putting that aside Scotland, as part of the UK, can  bask in the reflected glory of the cultural and sporting achievements from the other Home Nations ( most notably England)

The sum of the parts etc

Independence would jeopardize all that for Scotland. But that’s for them to decide.

Listening to colonial bollocks like this I think it's little wonder Scotland want independence. 

It amazes me that on the one hand some people seem to value sovereignty so highly that they seem to think it's worth tens of thousands of lives and the displacement of millions of others as in Ukraine (Zelensky is widely regarded as a hero despite the death toll), then on the other hand they're so dismissive of it in other places such as Scotland or here.

I genuinely think independence would be good for Scotland, I hope they vote the right way this time.

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This English chauvinistic 'lover spurned' attitude of, 'go ahead and see how you get on without the reflected glory of us sometimes winning in the cricket against the four other countries who play it, and by the way you're not getting your share of the embassies or the government buildings in London, or the BBC or Armed Forces you also paid for' isn't going to win any 'no' votes — and is a recipe for a bad separation if it comes.

A better approach from the English would be to respect that your mates who have stood by you through thick and thin might go their own way, and wish good look to them if they do. That way, they might not — but if they do, at least they leave as the best of friends (and allies). 

England and Scotland should study a bit more about the bad choices made when Ireland decided to opt out of the UK and think what are the best measures to take to avoid those mistakes. 

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4 hours ago, Freggyragh said:

 

A better approach from the English would be to respect that your mates who have stood by you through thick and thin might go their own way, and wish good look to them if they do. That way, they might not — but if they do, at least they leave as the best of friends (and allies). 

 

Are these the sort of mates who will you to lose football matches? Anyone but England etc.

 

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Don't forget that Scotland, unlike Wales, didn't willingly become part of Great Britain and that spirit of independence and rebellion lives on.

The English took Scotland by force.  The Scots appear to now wany their sovereignty back rather than be controlled by Westminster. 

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1 hour ago, manxman1980 said:

Don't forget that Scotland, unlike Wales, didn't willingly become part of Great Britain and that spirit of independence and rebellion lives on.

The English took Scotland by force.  The Scots appear to now wany their sovereignty back rather than be controlled by Westminster. 

I’m not sure there is a majority for independence.

But if there is to be an independent referendum could all parties agree to accept and respect the result, whatever it may be, in advance?

None of this nonsense of   “they didn’t know what they were voting for, they’re all racists etc, etc”

 

Edited by The Voice of Reason
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1 minute ago, The Voice of Reason said:

I’m not sure there is a majority for independence.

But if there is to be an independent referendum could all parties agree to accept the result, whatever it may be, in advance?

None of this nonsense of   “they didn’t know what they were voting for, they’re all racists etc, etc”

 

Whilst I don't support Brexit I would support Scottish Sovereignty.  

I think Scotland would already have been independent if the threat of losing EU membership hadn't been  used as a benefit of staying in the UK last time.

That's now gone, against the will of the majority of the Scottish people,  so give them the choice to leave the United Kingdom. 

If they subsequently apply to join the EU as an independent nation then good on them.

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