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JK Rowling Manx Flag Controversy


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5 minutes ago, AcousticallyChallenged said:

It is mostly one bloke with a bit of a bug bear against trans people wittering all night about JK Rowling, and really, arguing himself in circles.

I really do not have any issue with trans people at all, please highlight any post that does. I have an issue with people trying to cancel and silence a woman who actually has a good handle on the whole thing. 

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1 minute ago, offshoremanxman said:

I really do not have any issue with trans people at all, please highlight any post that does. I have an issue with people trying to cancel and silence a woman who actually has a good handle on the whole thing. 

So, what's your answer? Banning trans women from cis-women's spaces?

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3 minutes ago, AcousticallyChallenged said:

So, what's your answer? Banning trans women from cis-women's spaces?

It’s up to cis women to determine what they would prefer to happen in order to feel safe. Anecdotally it would seem that the majority want their own space. 

Edited by offshoremanxman
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Just now, offshoremanxman said:

It’s up to cis women to determine what they would prefer to happen order to feel safe. Anecdotally it would seem that’s what they want their own space. 

Ah, but anecdotally, from my experiences and social circles, the cis women I know are generally comfortable with and supportive of trans women sharing their spaces, as quite frankly, they know what men are like, and how hard it can be dealing with them.

The trans women I know on the other hand, are often petrified of even using public conveniences for fear of being accosted or harmed in the process, if they don't 'pass' enough. Trans men I know feel the same way, that they might get their head kicked in in the mens if they don't 'look right'. The fear can genuinely be crippling for these people.

Plus, how do you determine if someone is too 'manly' to access a safe space?

Julie Bindel can be quoted, on the topic of a women's pool as saying "There have been trans women at the pond for decades, but this self-identification nonsense means there’s nothing at all you can do if a person with a penis and a beard comes to the pool and starts getting his kit off – it’s just mad".

But, that view essentially denies any possibility that they are women.

Another woman in the same article says "Personally, I don’t see a difference between a man who says he’s a man or a man who says he’s a woman. It’s not about a physical change, men are socialised to be more violent than women and it’s men whom women feel frightened of when they are getting undressed"

A lot of the vocal arguments seem to boil down to the view that a trans woman can't really be a woman.

As another user of the pool herself states: "I understand that people are frightened of men, that’s why we have female-only spaces. [Excluding trans women] says you see these women as men but they are not, they are women, just trans women. There is more to being a woman than your genitalia."

I agree that, a bloke with a big bushy beard trying to let himself into a woman's space would cause discontent, but that discontent would come regardless of how they identified.

Short of doing a DNA test, someone who has undergone medical and surgical transition, often to great personal expense and huge recovery processes, how would one even know they are trans, unless they told you?

 

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2 minutes ago, AcousticallyChallenged said:

Ah, but anecdotally, from my experiences and social circles, the cis women I know are generally comfortable with and supportive of trans women sharing their spaces, as quite frankly, they know what men are like, and how hard it can be dealing with them.

The trans women I know on the other hand, are often petrified of even using public conveniences for fear of being accosted or harmed in the process, if they don't 'pass' enough. Trans men I know feel the same way, that they might get their head kicked in in the mens if they don't 'look right'. The fear can genuinely be crippling for these people.

Plus, how do you determine if someone is too 'manly' to access a safe space?

Julie Bindel can be quoted, on the topic of a women's pool as saying "There have been trans women at the pond for decades, but this self-identification nonsense means there’s nothing at all you can do if a person with a penis and a beard comes to the pool and starts getting his kit off – it’s just mad".

But, that view essentially denies any possibility that they are women.

Another woman in the same article says "Personally, I don’t see a difference between a man who says he’s a man or a man who says he’s a woman. It’s not about a physical change, men are socialised to be more violent than women and it’s men whom women feel frightened of when they are getting undressed"

A lot of the vocal arguments seem to boil down to the view that a trans woman can't really be a woman.

As another user of the pool herself states: "I understand that people are frightened of men, that’s why we have female-only spaces. [Excluding trans women] says you see these women as men but they are not, they are women, just trans women. There is more to being a woman than your genitalia."

I agree that, a bloke with a big bushy beard trying to let himself into a woman's space would cause discontent, but that discontent would come regardless of how they identified.

Short of doing a DNA test, someone who has undergone medical and surgical transition, often to great personal expense and huge recovery processes, how would one even know they are trans, unless they told you?

 

TL:DR

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Just now, AcousticallyChallenged said:

So, you grumble when you're called names, but you won't actually read things either.

Anyone would think you're just on here to be objectionable.

I’ve listened to you. I’m at the point that I really don’t want to listen to your silly wailing anymore. It doesn’t really add any value to anything. 

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Just now, offshoremanxman said:

I’ve listened to you. I’m at the point that I really don’t want to listen to your silly wailing anymore. It doesn’t really add any value to anything. 

Oh bless you, back to the name calling.

We really are back to the elusive offshoremanxman technique of vexatious circles.

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1 minute ago, offshoremanxman said:

Not name calling. Silly is a good identifier of your content to be honest. 

You've taken several pages of replying to me to say that you think I'm silly and JK Rowling is right, with little else of any real consequence or justification.

Who is truly the silly billy here?

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21 minutes ago, TheTeapot said:

I've only ever seen one woman with a beard, but i dont think she was trying to be a bloke, she was just old and weird.

Why are you bringing your girlfriend into the conversation…:whistling:

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9 hours ago, Hoops said:

 labelled now, not as a woman and all that encompasses, but merely by bodily functions, is somewhat demeaning, a retrograde step in the on-going battle for equality.

See, this feels as if you’re trying to take a particular case, and extrapolate to the notion that it must be the erasure of women’s identity. 

It’s simply an edge case. A trans person might still have organs aligned with their birth gender. Some can and some often are, safely removed. They need to seek medical care and checkups for those, for things like cervical or prostate cancer. The appropriate terminology used when discussing with those patients is what the “people who menstruate” and “birth-givers” etc. language is about. 

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9 hours ago, AcousticallyChallenged said:

So, denying that trans people can truly identify with their chosen gender is an acceptable thing?

Good to know we're on a progressive island here.

Yet denying that people can self identify as another colour is acceptable? Good to know etc etc

Your intersex argument was tenuous, over 99.98% of humans are biologically either a man or a woman. The 0.02% of intersex people 'does not mean that every human can unambiguously be categorised as male or female' (JK Rowling is right -sex is real and not a "spectrum" Colin Wright, Quilette). 

As Wright says, maybe we should look to a better classification system to include intersex people, instead of trying to pretend sex is subjective?

One thing I'm sure we can all agree on is, our mental health system needs to be a hell of a lot more robust then it is in order to deal with the issues arising from this and other matters.

On the sharing of spaces, which Helix describes as only being a door away from not existing, but also includes centres for victims of rape, domestic abuse refuges and prisons, well, it's funny how the opinion of people like me 'causes harm' and may 'trigger' people, yet that is not a problem of biological men appearing in women's spaces?

And Helix, I have no idea who that person is you posted an image of is, and I sure as hell am not googling it!

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1 hour ago, Hoops said:

Yet denying that people can self identify as another colour is acceptable? Good to know etc etc

Your intersex argument was tenuous, over 99.98% of humans are biologically either a man or a woman. The 0.02% of intersex people 'does not mean that every human can unambiguously be categorised as male or female' (JK Rowling is right -sex is real and not a "spectrum" Colin Wright, Quilette). 

As Wright says, maybe we should look to a better classification system to include intersex people, instead of trying to pretend sex is subjective?

One thing I'm sure we can all agree on is, our mental health system needs to be a hell of a lot more robust then it is in order to deal with the issues arising from this and other matters.

On the sharing of spaces, which Helix describes as only being a door away from not existing, but also includes centres for victims of rape, domestic abuse refuges and prisons, well, it's funny how the opinion of people like me 'causes harm' and may 'trigger' people, yet that is not a problem of biological men appearing in women's spaces?

And Helix, I have no idea who that person is you posted an image of is, and I sure as hell am not googling it!

And yet, you manage to be wrong by orders of magnitude. The actual quoted figure is closer to around 1.7%. Even using your figures, that’s ~13,000 people out of the UK population, closer to a million if you believe the 1.7% figure, as an example. How would the anyone feel if the UK’s view of their population was “fuck them, they can suffer”, whilst actively campaigning for such?

Of course, citing someone who entertains an audience with Joe Rogan isn’t necessarily the strongest point I’ve heard either. 

Have a read of this, it explains more why biological sex, which I presume you’re defining as denoting between XX and XY chromosomes, isn’t the be all and end all you seem to be treating it as. 

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/voices/stop-using-phony-science-to-justify-transphobia/

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