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JK Rowling Manx Flag Controversy


Amadeus
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2 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said:

But surely to become an “elite” runner you would have to work your way up through the ranks beating trans people.

Or have I got that wrong? I don’t know much about how these things work.

All I know is that if someone has an unfair advantage, it’s not right

No, my point was, that even in female-sex-only competitions, there is a growing array of rules around hormone levels, what is acceptable and what is deemed an unfair advantage.

Women with elevated testosterone levels are over-represented in elite athletics groups, often caused by medical conditions like PCOS.

So, the question ends up looking like "what is 'woman enough' to compete in the female competitions?' and that's before the trans debate.

 

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16 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said:

Well you say it’s blown out of all proportion but if you were a non trans women losing a race to a trans woman you may reasonably feel cheated.

If this transgender thing is such a trivial thing ( as say in the context of sport) why is it generating so much comment and angst?

( Sorry I can’t get rid of the picture of the individual above)

But the people you talk about losing a race to a trans woman number literally in the hundreds worldwide. It's ludicrous for it to be national level news, and the reason it's pushed as national level news is because it's the "acceptable" face of transphobia.

8 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said:

But surely to become an “elite” runner you would have to work your way up through the ranks beating trans people.

Or have I got that wrong? I don’t know much about how these things work.

All I know is that if someone has an unfair advantage, it’s not right

Michael Phelps has an unfair advantage due to his ridiculous wingspan - which he didn't earn, he was born with it. Sport is unfair. I don't think any of us are well placed to judge what is fair or not in terms of transgender people in sport, I'm happy to leave it to the regulating bodies. Whichever way they rule.

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2 minutes ago, 0bserver said:

Life is so much better when you just ignore the people Rowling is arguing with. 

They disappear when you starve them of attention.

Because invisibility is really good for anyone is struggling.

'Don't ask, don't tell' has been fantastically successful, hasn't it?

Trans people kill themselves at enormous rates, not least because they feel like they're alone in their experience.

Male suicide rates are also significantly higher, because men feel they can't or shouldn't articulate their feelings, and that they should 'man up'.

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1 minute ago, AcousticallyChallenged said:

Because invisibility is really good for anyone is struggling.

'Don't ask, don't tell' has been fantastically successful, hasn't it?

Trans people kill themselves at enormous rates, not least because they feel like they're alone in their experience.

Male suicide rates are also significantly higher, because men feel they can't or shouldn't articulate their feelings, and that they should 'man up'.

The ones Rowling is arguing with are extremists. 

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3 minutes ago, 0bserver said:

The ones Rowling is arguing with are extremists. 

The Stonewall rioters were seen as extremists too, simply for wanting to live as a gay person without being arrested for it.

Trans people are simply wanting the right to exist in peace, without fear of violence, attack or denial of their human rights. They're not trying to deprive anyone else.

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1 minute ago, AcousticallyChallenged said:

No, my point was, that even in female-sex-only competitions, there is a growing array of rules around hormone levels, what is acceptable and what is deemed an unfair advantage.

Women with elevated testosterone levels are over-represented in elite athletics groups, often caused by medical conditions like PCOS.

So, the question ends up looking like "what is 'woman enough' to compete in the female competitions?' and that's before the trans debate.

 

OK thanks I haven’t a clue what PCOS is (there are too many acronyms flying about)

But if a “woman “ ( I apologize for using the term)was born with the usual bits then whatever testerone, hormone or PCOS she, (they) have is irrelevant when it comes to sporting activities. That is not an unnatural or unfair advantage.

But if you want to put stuff in your body to make you more male or female that’s fine. It may help you come to terms with becoming the gender/ sex (call it what you will) you want to be that’s fine.

But if it is used to either as a view to, or a by product of, to achieving sporting prowess that cannot be right.

 

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Just now, The Voice of Reason said:

But if a “woman “ ( I apologize for using the term)was born with the usual bits then whatever testerone, hormone or PCOS she, (they) have is irrelevant when it comes to sporting activities. That is not an unnatural or unfair advantage.

Er, you might want to talk to basically every sporting body about that because they all disagree.

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said:

OK thanks I haven’t a clue what PCOS is (there are too many acronyms flying about)

But if a “woman “ ( I apologize for using the term)was born with the usual bits then whatever testerone, hormone or PCOS she, (they) have is irrelevant when it comes to sporting activities. That is not an unnatural or unfair advantage.

But if you want to put stuff in your body to make you more male or female that’s fine. It may help you come to terms with becoming the gender/ sex (call it what you will) you want to be that’s fine.

But if it is used to either as a view to, or a by product of, to achieving sporting prowess that cannot be right.

 

PCOS is polycystic ovary syndrome. One of the symptoms can be increased testosterone production.

Some sports bodies will argue that that testosterone being above 'normal' levels, enables an unfair advantage against other women without those elevated hormones. Testosterone increases your muscle mass, as well as improving your blood's oxygenation capacity, and changing your bone structure, amongst other things.

Elite female athletes have been excluded on the back of their levels being too high compared to 'normal' levels, thus conferring, in the eyes of sporting bodies, an unfair advantage.

Edit to add: This is purely talking about women who were born female. For clarity.

Edited by AcousticallyChallenged
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Posted (edited)
51 minutes ago, AcousticallyChallenged said:

The Stonewall rioters were seen as extremists too, simply for wanting to live as a gay person without being arrested for it.

Trans people are simply wanting the right to exist in peace, without fear of violence, attack or denial of their human rights. They're not trying to deprive anyone else.

Perfectly put. 

My thoughts on Rowling is that she is inciting hate.  By devaluing the Alphabet Group, she is responsible (in part) for ostracising them further and, at the same time influencing that it’s ok to take the piss out of them. I don’t know why she’s so ‘anti’ and I don’t care but we all have a collective part in creating an equalled and valued society and she’s giving ‘permission’ to creating the opposite. 

I’m also quite sad that a woman who enchanted me so much by the written word can be such a dick in real life.

I don’t want to censor or cancel or stifle her right to say what she wants.  I’m just really disappointed about the direction it’s going.

The AG are just people who want to live the life they feel called to. Why can’t we just let them be and stop waiting to jump into choosing to be offended  

It’s funny you mention Stonewall, because reading the last few pages of this thread is reminiscent of Alf Garnet’s daughter’s boyfriend getting into a shouting match with Alf and Alf insulting him, and also insulting whoever they were arguing about. 

Edited by Roxanne
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1 minute ago, Roxanne said:

I’m also quite sad that a woman who enchanted me so much by the written word can be such a dick in real life.

I think this also highlights why JK gets so much attention from the trans community for her remarks.

Many people have grown up over the last 20-30 years, enchanted by the magical world of Harry Potter, only for an author they loved so much to come out with the things she does.

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2 minutes ago, AcousticallyChallenged said:

I think this also highlights why JK gets so much attention from the trans community for her remarks.

Many people have grown up over the last 20-30 years, enchanted by the magical world of Harry Potter, only for an author they loved so much to come out with the things she does.

I’m sad to hear that. 

She’s showing them who she is and there’s cognitive dissonance at play. A double whammy of hurt. 

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16 minutes ago, AcousticallyChallenged said:

Many people have grown up over the last 20-30 years, enchanted by the magical world of Harry Potter, only for an author they loved so much to come out with the things she does.

To be honest I have never been enchanted by either the Harry Potter books or films. I did see one movie but didn’t enjoy it it then each to their own. Probably the wrong generation 

Why on earth though should you pay any more attention to her political or other pronouncements because she is a successful author?

Madness

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To interject here. Long post incoming to clear up some myths and other bits.

1. Woke is simply being aware of the social, political and cultural issues faced by minority groups. This “wokeism” half you all believe in is nothing more than the weaponised version used by the right, promoted by the daily Mail and other media. Most people are woke by it’s actual definition in some way or another. I consider myself woke by that definition also.

2. To those bleating “cancel culture”. I’m a lefty and I can’t say i have actually seen anyone cancelled. Not really. People claim they are cancelled, shout about people trying to cancel them. But, all those people still have huge social media followings, speak at events, write and sell books and have very vocal opinions that reach a large audience. And quite honestly are about as far from cancelled as you can get.

3. Barely any of us on the left have any intention of removing anyones freedom of speech. That’s a small minority called the far left and a lot of us think they are bellends at the best of times for some of the crap they pull. The rest of us support freedom of speech, support the discussion of ideas and support an individuals right to an opinion. What we don’t believe however is that freedom of speech gives someone the right to go out of their way to insult, belittle or otherwise make a person feel anything less than what they are. That isn’t freedom of speech, that’s just being a cunt. And that’s the issue here. Half the people spouting their freedom of speech is being taken away are actually upset because they are no longer able to say things to minority groups that make fun of or cause offence to them.

4. JK Rowling. Most of what has been mentioned are relatively early tweets where she did still show some support. Since then, she has really gone to town on targeting trans people at every possible opportunity and now she has surrounded herself with her echo chamber of like minded morons it has only gotten worse, she associates with and promotes people who have stated in interview that trans people should be put to death, rounded up, put in special camps (uhhh….) and more. She’s a very toxic individual. However, she said something very revealing in a recent tweet. She linked trans women with her abusive ex husband hinting that there is somehow a link of blame that falls on trans women for how she was treated. It makes me wonder if that’s the real issue. She can’t outright hate men as that would cause all manner of issue in regards to her professional life so she hates on trans women who were born biologically male instead.

5. No. Trans people do not deny biology. Never have. Never will. That’s a “daily Mail told me so” claim. Trust me when I say they are more than aware of what biology is. They have to live with biology every single day. They do however accept (quite rightly) that biology is not black and white and is incredibly complex when you delve into the nitty gritty. The whole concept of man vs woman is not as clear cut as the gender critics would want you to believe. I am not writing another post on this here as it will go on for days. But, if you take everything into account that you should take into account. You could easily argue that every person alive is in some way intersex and that a large portion of the population deviate from what people believe is the standard model.

6. No, trans people are not trying to erase women. That has never been a thing. Not once have women been told they can’t identify with whatever they feel makes them female. Not once have they been told that they can’t be women. That again is a gender critic “daily Mail told me so” claim. Literally no one is doing this and would want to do this. This has come about because of the whole bathroom and changing room debacle which is utter nonsense. Yes, a handful of trans people have done a bad thing. But that doesn’t mean the whole is representative of the few. There is good and bad in every walk of society. If anyone thinks banning trans women from womens toilets is going to somehow save natal women then they should go to google, click on “News” and search “woman raped in toilet”. There’s a whole subsection of cis men that didn’t get that memo and raped women in toilets anyway and have been doing so for a very long time. And none of them had to pretend to be trans to do so. But it’s trans people that are the issue?. I find it interesting amidst the thousands and thousands of articles about cis men doing the raping that none of these people talk about that or gang together in national outrage. No, only when a trans person uses a toilet to pee.

Lastly. If you hadn’t guessed it, yes I’m trans and unlike the nonsense people believe I am actually more than open to sitting down and having a sensible discussion with anyone on this matter and explaining out things about being transgender that they might not understand and I am more than willing to listen to other peoples points of view. I might not agree with it but I will listen.

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4 hours ago, Chie said:

And that’s the issue here. Half the people spouting their freedom of speech is being taken away are actually upset because they are no longer able to say things to minority groups that make fun of or cause offence to them.

Hit the nail on the head here Chie. Great post too by the way, thank you.

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