Mec Vannin Make Believe

[Skeddan]

I've just read the latest issue of Yn Pabyr Seyr put out by Mec Vannin.

 

In their usual ‘Illiam Dhone Commemoration Oration’, Angela Moffat says that Illiam Dhone was “taken out by British forces and executed by firing squad”.

 

Mec Vannin's view of Manx history is as bogus as David Drew Howe. One only has to look at public records of the Privy Council to see that the British authorities tried to prevent the execution.

 

Mec Vannin are obviously so caught up in their make believe that they don't care about factual inaccuracies. It would also seem that they don't realise how they have fallen for the artful propaganda put out by the Brits which presented Illiam Dhone as a national hero. Illiam Dhone's 'heroic achievement' was to put the country in the hands of the English. Better yet for the Brits, the Illiam Dhone myth that is propagated presents the Stanley's as the villains (and ignores the fact that the Stanley's were legitimate Kings of Mann in descent from Godred Crovan). Is it a coincidence that the myth started going around when the Brits began their occupation in 1765? What could better serve the Brits than to set up someone as a focus for Manx nationalism whose greatest achievement was to surrender control to the English, and whose 'martyrdom' consisted in being brought to justice for treason against the Manx crown. What better role model could the English have Manx nationalists adopt?

 

Don't Mec Vannin realise they are playing into the hands of Whitehall spin doctors by propagating their make believe nonsense and distortions of history? As someone observed in the forums, if Mec Vannin didn't exist COM would invent them... One might even be forgiven for wondering if perhaps Moffat, like his hero Illiam Dhone, is in the pay of Whitehall and working to their agenda. Even the Manx Herald recognises that Mec Vannin are 'soft'. Why are they so ineffective and why do none of the real issues ever get raised? Instead of touting historical hogwash, why have they not protested about the failure to protect Manx fishing and mineral resources by declaring an EEZ, leaving these open to exploitation by the UK?

 

Isn't it time for the make believe nationalism of Mec Vannin to be set aside, and time that the real national issues, such as a Manx EEZ, are addressed?

[Skeddan]

Not a socketpuppet of David Drew Howe. He is a bogus fraud who is only interesting in his fake title scam. If you think that American fraudster has the slightest interest in EEZ's I think you're much mistaken; he's more into cashing in on the back of fake charities. You want to think the Manx Administration are acting in the best interests of the country and not the UK, then yes, perhaps you are - well, if not a moron, perhaps naive, just as I think you would be if you fall hook line and sinker for the Illiam Dhone crap. If I was David Howe, I wouldn't just be claiming the right to grant titles, I'd go for the whole lot - and declare an EEZ, and demand repayment of all the money skimmed off by the UK to pay for 'defence', but then I'm not him and I'm not claiming to be 'King of Mann' (And which is why even if Howe had any right to make himself king, I wouldn't have any respect for him given the way he's been carrying on). Think what you like about me - but the real issue is the UK are skimming millions from the country and making fools of you and everyone else who goes along with it.

[Frances]

William Christian was basically acting in his own interests - Earl James (who actually is not of any descent that I know of from Godred but his family were 'given' the Island after the English crown threw out the Scots who had defeated the last of the Crovan line) had attempted to change the land tenure to be more directly under his control; William Christian apparently had discussions with the Parliamentary authorities in London that if they acquired power the old tenure would be restored. Technically I believe (and I am backed in this assertion by the 19th C Manx Jurist Sir James Gell) that WC committed treason against his Lord - when WC went of at short notice to England to escape awkward questions re his 'family relationships' and how the Keys dealt with complaints against one of their members, he went back to his estates in England and for as yet some unexplained reason landed up in the Fleet prison (for embezlement ? - maybe he was paid by London and didn't deliver?) - on release post restoration he made his way back to the Island assuming that the general amnesty granted by Charles II for acts committed during the Civil war in England applied to the Island - legally it didn't until as from 1606 (& earlier) it had been accepted that the Island was 'noe parte of England' - a Privy Council order was obtained (this was sought for on WC's behalf but apparently arrived too late). Quite who threw WC into Castle Rushen is not clear - it might well have been local commanders who had had enough of his bully boy tactics in parliamentary days pre the restoration of Earl Charles - anyway WC petitioned Earl Charles for a pardon but the court went ahead - a lot of evidence was taken (see ManxSoc volume of the proceedings) but in no way did the English forces execute WC - possibly Earl Charles wanted him tried - possibly Earl James's widow did (though she and son Charles were apparently not on speaking terms) - certainly Earl Charles threw out some members of the Keys who he thought were in the Christian camp and replaced them with other landholders.

 

WC is a very tarnished 'hero' but MV continue to put him forward as a model Manxie executed by the Brits - complete nonsense - his heroic stature is in significant part due to the ballad which dates from when the Manx had a genuine grievance against the English for abolishing the 'running trade' in 1765 (an offshore tax industry that avoided paying import duty running goods into England) .

[Skeddan]

Fair questions.

 

“So you have made only 3 posts here. Why?”

 

I only have 3 posts here because only just joined. True, that might be what the King of the Wanx might do, but it’s just a case of not having joined before, though I’ve visited as a guest. Is there a problem being a new member?

 

“If your so interested in Mec Vannin why only post now?”

 

I’m interested in Manx history and Manx politics. Why post only now? Because before posting anything I like to get my facts straight; that takes time.

 

“Also subliminally you laid the foundations of Howes case by supporting the Stanley cause.”

 

Yes, I can see why this would make you even more suspicous. However the Stanley’s did have the sovereignty, that’s a fact. You will find plenty of people (even the Manx government and English Parliament) who will acknoweldge that the Stanley’s had the sovereignty of IoM and who don’t give any credit to Howe. That does NOT help Howe’s case since he doesn’t have a case apart from being a distant descendant of the Stanley’s pretends taking a semi-illiterate ad out in the paper gives him some right because this pathetic ploy is the only thing he can use to give a semblence of legitimacy to his fake titles scam. The issue I was getting at is more historical; that the Brits used propaganda which helped their cause and undermined any 'Stanley cause' at the time, and did this so effectively that any 'Stanley cause' that might crop up now wouldn't have a snowball's. I'd think half the antagonism towards Howe is not because his claim is bogus, but because he is claiming on the basis of pretending he is somehow heir to the Stanley's.

 

Yes, I can see the reasons for your suspicions, which aren’t unreasonable given the way the King of the Wanx has been carrying on, including his using socketpuppets.

 

“As someone observed in the forums, if Mec Vannin didn't exist COM would invent them..

Where was that and was it from an MF regular or some other identity or yours thats posted a few times?”

 

The point I picked up on was made by ‘Rog’ in Aug 2005 (he had 1799 posts at that time).

You will find it at : http://www.manxforums.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=6722

 

To quote in part, he says:

 

If Mec Vannin didn’t exist the corrupt COM would quite possible have created such a party in order to divert disaffected people towards in the knowledge that the end result would be NOTHING.

 

I perhaps should have said ‘might have invented them’ rather than ‘would invent them’ – sorry if that misrepresented what had been posted.

 

Any other questions? If so, can we perhaps deal with the differences with a bit more civility please. I accept that you may dislike criticism of the Manx Administration and/or Mec Vannin and/or any acknoweldgement of certain facts of Manx history. Where is the point of disagreement? Can we at least agree David Drew Howe is a bogus scam artist who has no more right to anything in the IoM than a term of imprisonment for fraud?

[sarahc]

Illiam Dhone = Traitor.

Huzzah!

[Skeddan]

I see you added a coiuple of observations since my reply:

 

Yes "the" country and not "our" country. Also you refer to "you" and "everyone else" but not you who does not live here so STFU

 

Yes I do not live in IoM. In fact I have been living in New Zealand for the past 12 years. Is there a problem with that? I wasn't aware that one had to be a resident to participate in the forums. Can I claim to be Manx? That depends. I have Manx ancestry (Taubmans, Christians, etc.) but that is a bit distant now. I was not brought up in IoM, I do not have a Manx passport (but who does?), and I do not speak Manx Gaelic (though crap is Manx Gaelic is still crap). Can I claim its my country? No. Do I? No. I wouldn't even say it's your country since it is being run by the Brits for the Brits. You seem to think I am not entitled to an opinion on Manx affairs it seems. Why? What qualification do you think is needed? You don't have to live there to see that it would be in the country's interest to have an EEZ. If you want to learn about Manx history, you're probably better not living there anyway - after all according to the official website, IoM was granted to Stanley in 1405/1406 by Henry VII after the Battle of Bosworth in 1485. Having learnt Manx history in a Manx school does not give one an infallible understanding of Manx history.

 

PS: SOCKPUPPET IS A US PHRASE THAT'S BEEN USED ON MANY OF HOWE'S SITES.

 

Yes it is, but it also is a general Internet term - like Phishing. I am familiar with many of the sites associated with Howe, including his bogus claims to have trained Navy Seals and where he was suspected of using socketpuppets. I also revisited the Manx forums given the thread on Howe (which is where I first posted, making the observation that all along he seems to have only been interested in selling titles). Having joined ManxForums.com to make this not very pro-Howe post, I added a comment after reading Mec Vannin's newsheet.

 

If you want to play witchfinder general, then please check with the forum moderators on my IP address (which will show that unlike Howe I am currently in London) and my registered email address. You can then check with Michael Andrews Reading (who has been spearheading the campaign against Howe at unrealroyal.com) and he will I'm sure gladly confirm that I have been actively helping to expose Howe as a fraudster, including bringing to Michael's attention that Howe's activities were in violation of Title 18 of United States Code, Section 1343 (Wire Fraud), and advising how to lodge a complaint against him with the Internet Crime Complaint Center. I've been no less anti-Howe than you perhaps, although maybe a bit more effective than simply impotently hurling abuse. What have you achieved in that respect?

 

Your entitled to call me a wanker or whatever for holding my own opinions (that Mec Vannin are ineffective at representing some of the real nationalist issues, or thinking that the Manx Administration is simply a quisling regime for Westminster, or whatever). You can bleat that only someone living on the Island has a right to have any opinion on anything and everything. Whatever... Go ahead, there may be some validity in those points, but at least do so honestly, and not on the back of false accusations that all I am saying should be discredited as being from that American scam artist.

[Declan]

Here's a warning. People are watching these boards 24/7. They are doing Google searches on you 24/7. They are picking up anything and everything that you post or that gets posted about you anywhere in the world.

 

Good God! NothIng like a bit of perspective is there.

 

There was a new poster on earlier enquiring about folk music earlier, does the International observation network think she's King David?

 

To poInt to the use of the term sockpuppet by skeddan is bonkers - that expression has been used tonnes of times on here, in fact if I recall correctly, firstly by me. So am I King David too?

[Declan]

Skeddan - what makes you think they teach Manx history in Manx schools?

[cheeky boy]

We need more mental people like this on the forums

[Skeddan]

Oh dear you give the game away again. Its got political now.

 

Yes it IS political.

 

 

Everyone knows Rog is a Daily Mail reader who was hounded off these forums for his overtly right-wing views. He lives in Norfolk FFS. What credibility do you attach to that statement?

 

All I said what that this observation had been made on the forums - which it had. You insinuated that there hadn't been any such posting, a point you now hopefully conceed. Is there credibility in such an observation? Do you try to discredit it by ad hominem attacks? Tell us what you think - and what is after all is the point of the thread - are Mec Vannin a credible nationalist party who effectively represent the interests of the country? Do you discredit everyone who thinks there could and should be a more effective and credible alternative to Mec Vannin? Does everyone think Mec Vannin have done a fine job in addressing issues such as the EEZ? Do people think that issues such as the exploitation of Manx fishing, and petrochemical resources is not very important?

 

If you go head to head against the IOM Government you will LOSE.

 

Are you a defeatist or a staunch supporter of the quisling government, or simply hope that this 'promise' will intimidate me? I don't have to go head to head against the IOM Government, nor do I have to remind you about the United Nations and principles of self-determination, and how the UK and IOM Government has to report to and is accountable to the UN. Ooops - hope this doesn't seem to be 'mine is bigger than yours' stuff. If the IOM Government is as infallible as you say and one is sure to lose if one goes against it, then it is simply what one would call a tyranny. Do you think that IoM should not have an EEZ? Why? Because it might upset the Brits who wouldn't like this? Don't tell me, you must be a Mec Vannin nationalist!

[Ean]

Skeddan isn't David Howe, and what is your obsession with the King of Mann's penis? You've referred to it in every one of your posts on this thread now...

[Skeddan]

Now we are starting to get somewhere. Thanks for now addressing the real questions.

 

You confuse the Manx dilemma. The Queen is Lord of Mann. People might not like that. I do not buy into the Illiam Dhone story. But what would you rather? A benign Queen or some fat ginger, cockctail sausage penised, fatass, selling stinky titles to idiots?

 

The Queen is Lord of Man. We might not like that, but that is the position of the Isle of Man. I'd rather deal with a royal than a retard.

 

 

Ok, you don't buy into the Illiam Dhone story. I don't either, for reasons already given.

 

I don't understand what you mean by the 'Manx dilemma.' I also don't understand why you think that all that is possible is a choice between a 'benign Queen' (whose country demands millions to pay for 'defence' and which exploits Manx resources - how benign!) and that the only alternative is the scam artist who tries to sell stinky titles to idiots.

 

You insist that the Queen is Lord of Man and seem to accept that the English Crown has legal title to Manx sovereignty. I disagree. IoM is under the control of the UK as an 'Administering Power'. As I said in the "King of Mann" thread"

 

The problem is that it isn't just the people who like to think they've bought the titles who don't like to admit it, other people get taken in by it as well. Lots of people are fooled into thinking the Crown of England bought the sovereignty of the Isle of Man (and the titles that went with it). The trouble is when you look at the legislation the whole thing was a sham; Queen Elizabeth II has no more right to the title of Queen of Mann / Lord of Mann than David Drew Howe has a right to his self-professed title. The UK just stepped in and started exercising control and de facto sovereignty over the territory without having legal title. Since then official statements have always fudged the 'constitutional relationship' (they can't tell outright lies, and know better than to admit that the Isle of Man is occupied territory governed by a quisling administration for the 'Administering Power'). If you think you wouldn't be taken in by a fake title scam, think again!

 

Just to be clear about this, I am NOT saying that Queen Elizabeth II has ever fraudulently claimed to be the Queen of Mann / Lord of Mann (though lots of people mistakenly address her as such). English monarchs, such as Queen Victoria, have always, very properly, declined to adopt this title. Official statements show the Queen is head of state of 16 countries (if you count them up and cross reference these, you will see it should be 17 IF she were head of state of IoM, which is NEVER included). and the responsibility for 'good government' is exactly the responsibility of an Occupying Power over territory under its effective control. 'Crown Dependency' is a nice euphemism for a territory whose sovereignty is under the subjugation of the Crown of England (otherwise it is a constitutional anomaly unknown in law). The Crown has never made false representations, but rather been 'economical with the truth' (which is perfectly legitimate in the circumstances) and people draw their own ill-founded conclusions.

 

If you are under the mistaken belief that there was a legitimate purchase of the sovereignty of the Isle of Man, you should bear in mind that the King of England cannot acquire anything but by matter of judicial record. There is no such judicial record; even the so-called contract for the sale is non-existent (try finding it in the National Archives - I can send you a copy of an email from them confirming the 'file' which should hold this is empty!), and Manx sovereignty could no more be acquired by a public act of Parliament than it would be possible to acquire the sovereignty of Japan by this method.

 

I can understand that you'd rather be shafted by a right royal than by a seedy scammer. If the dilemma is who is it best to get shafted by, then they've got you fooled for sure. The best answer is not by anyone! But that's not going to happen as long as you're taken in by the Brit fake title scam, even if you've got the measure of Howe.

[Skeddan]

Skeddan isn't David Howe

 

Thanks for this Ean. Boredom, I hope this confirmation from a moderator is sufficient and can leave that issue behind. (?)

[Skeddan]

Frances, thanks for your comments on Illiam Dhone.

 

There is a lot you cover.

 

The Stanley descent from Godred can be traced through Isabel Lathom.

 

WC was being tried for treason against the Manx Crown, not for treason against the English Crown, so the Act of Indemnity did not apply.

 

Where WC did have a point though that as a civilian he shouldn't have been tried by a military court martial, but made the mistake of not pleading, which by law meant he had to be found guilty. It wasn't till quite a long time after this that the US Supreme Court first recognised the principle that no civilian should be tried by a court martial, and this still is not recognised in the UK (who are even further behind in their jurisprudence than the Manx were).

 

WC is a very tarnished 'hero' but MV continue to put him forward as a model Manxie executed by the Brits - complete nonsense - his heroic stature is in significant part due to the ballad which dates from when the Manx had a genuine grievance against the English for abolishing the 'running trade' in 1765 (an offshore tax industry that avoided paying import duty running goods into England) .

 

Thanks Frances. I agree it is complete nonsense, and silly make believe by MV for holding to this. Yes, as you observe this stature is in significant part due to the ballad which came out in 1765. I believe it very likely that this was, as I suggested, propaganda put out by the English.

[Skeddan]

Who do you want to be Monarch ? Someone who is benign, regal, or some ginger, fat, prick, who sels tiltes to fat idiots whilst claiming to help AIDS kids in Malawai?

 

Not my decision, but I think neither have any legal title. In my view sovereignty belongs to the people, even if that does mean you (as well as 80,000 others) - and, btw, since I do not live there it does NOT include me.

 

I live in the real world.

 

You live in a territory held under military occupation. You call it a Crown Dependency, and think this is 'self governing', while being governed by a quisling government, and you say it is benign, and that you live in the real world. OK, I understand, you don't want to face up to the reality that you are under foreign subjugation and perhaps may not like the idea that might dent your national pride. Get real. How much chance do you think that IoM will get an EEZ? Do you think the Manx Government consider that in the 'national interest' (of the UK).