Israel vs. the rest of the world?

[HeliX]

7 minutes ago, hoopsaa said:

Plenty of reports of tit for tat before the game, but what went on after.....

All violence is deplorable but I think if you walk round chanting "Kill the Arabs" and "There's no schools in Gaza because there's no children left" and booing through a silence for victims of the floods in Valencia you're probably not going to endear yourself to the drunk football fans on the other side.

[HeliX]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cn5wel11pgdo

"Nearly 70% of Gaza war dead are women and children, UN says"

[Chinahand]

Selective blindness on multiple sides. 

If you see only one side being responsible for this you're being selectively blind. 

It is impossible via social media to understand the scale of an issue and if one side is responsible for more bad behaviour than another. 

But no doubt both hooliganism and extremist behaviour has been on display on both sides. If it has been on a greater scale on one particular side I'd expect the authorities to report things in an reasonably unbiased way. 

[hoopsaa]

28 minutes ago, HeliX said:

All violence is deplorable but I think if you walk round chanting "Kill the Arabs" and "There's no schools in Gaza because there's no children left" and booing through a silence for victims of the floods in Valencia you're probably not going to endear yourself to the drunk football fans on the other side.

Except Ajax fans sing jewish songs and were singing with Maccabi fans in the afternoon.

Jewish people hear antisemitic chanting every weekend in European cities at the moment

[HeliX]

2 minutes ago, Chinahand said:

Selective blindness on multiple sides. 

If you see only one side being responsible for this you're being selectively blind. 

It is impossible via social media to understand the scale of an issue and if one side is responsible for more bad behaviour than another. 

But no doubt both hooliganism and extremist behaviour has been on display on both sides. If it has been on a greater scale on one particular side I'd expect the authorities to report things in an reasonably unbiased way. 

I suspect if the roles were fully reversed and fans had been chanting "Kill the Jews" that the media might have mentioned it. Don't you think?

[HeliX]

2 minutes ago, hoopsaa said:

Except Ajax fans sing jewish songs and were singing with Maccabi fans in the afternoon.

Jewish people hear antisemitic chanting every weekend in European cities at the moment

What antisemitic chanting goes on every weekend?

[The Voice of Reason]

Ok

Edited November 8, 2024 by The Voice of Reason

[P.K.]

3 hours ago, HeliX said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cn5wel11pgdo

"Nearly 70% of Gaza war dead are women and children, UN says"

"Nearly 70%" is very very close to 66%...

[HeliX]

7 minutes ago, P.K. said:

"Nearly 70%" is very very close to 66%...

"Its analysis found around 44% of verified victims were children and 26% women."

[P.K.]

11 hours ago, HeliX said:

"Its analysis found around 44% of verified victims were children and 26% women."

Yes it's an absolute tragedy.

But when Gazans put a terrorist organisation in charge of their affairs the results were inevitable to wit nightly rocket bombardments followed by a deliberately brutal assault...

[HeliX]

1 hour ago, P.K. said:

Yes it's an absolute tragedy.

But when Gazans put a terrorist organisation in charge of their affairs the results were inevitable to wit nightly rocket bombardments followed by a deliberately brutal assault...

Israel's indiscriminate response is unnecessary, unhelpful, and unlawful.

[P.K.]

12 minutes ago, HeliX said:

Israel's indiscriminate response is unnecessary, unhelpful, and unlawful.

And your alternative strategy is...?

You need to write to:

António Guterres

Secretary General of The United Nations

405 East 42nd Street,

New York,

NY 10017

USA

Dear Tony,

I'm writing to complain about your partition of Palestine in 1947 

Etc

Yours

A well-wisher

[Chinahand]

You can find the report here:

https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/documents/countries/opt/20241106-Gaza-Update-Report-OPT.pdf

It is sobering. Especially the contrasts with previous conflicts:

Here's the figures for conflicts in 2021 and 2014 - the majority of deaths combat aged men, with far fewer females killed.

This is the chart for the current conflict:

This is basically very similar to the demographic distribution of Gaza, with all demographic groups affected.

I went and looked at the demographics of Gaza:

https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/static/a365c24dffe0ad5a2303104a82540b72/GZ_popgraph2023.jpeg

And compared this to the deaths. It is sobering, but does hint that the killing ISNT entirely discriminate:

As you can see, kids are under-represented compared to demography and adults, especially fighting age men are over represented. BUT to be frank the figures are hugely sobering. If they are accurate the figures indicate the IDF efforts have killed an extra 250 or so fighting age men and saved the lives of 500 kids lives, compared to them just randomly killing 8000 members of the general population. It isn't entirely indiscriminate killing but it is fucking close to it.

The main issue is whether the figures used are accurate.

The UN say they have verified the identities of the people people killed - so it is a sample of the death toll.

How they obtained the sample is an absolutely vital question. If it is biased and excludes Hamas fighters it would be incredibly serious.

I wish I could say I trust that the UN organisations working in Gaza were unbiased, but I can't, but equally these charts are troubling. They need to be highlighted and verified if they are accurate or not.

 

 

 

[Chinahand]

Oh fuck - I've just seen the pyramid for Gaza is a subset ... just those killed in residential buildings. Fucking deliberate manipulation.

Something really suspicious is going on.

They say they've verified 8,119 deaths in Gaza, of which 7,607 died in residential buildings. They then don't give any details of those killed outside residential buildings.

Now that is only 512 people, so it isn't a lot, but it does change the figures a bit:

The number of kids saved grows a bit and is in the order of 700, the number of fighting age men killed is more clear, but smaller - around 200.

But the fact the UN hasn't given a demographic breakdown of the 500 people they have verified, but who weren't killed in residential buildings is flipping annoying. I'm going to bet a large proportion of them are fighting age men.

But even so ... the argument holds. Compared to indiscriminate killing the gains are very small.

As long as the figures are unbiased. It is very disappointing that they deliberately only presented a subset of the data they have. Doesn't bode well.

 

 

[TheTeapot]

Kids saved?