Israel vs. the rest of the world?

[Max Power]

50 minutes ago, RecklessAbandon said:

I said genocide and war crimes (why did you choose to only focus on one and ignore the other?).

Israel-Gaza: What did the ICJ ruling really say? - BBC News

"The UN's top court is hearing Israel's response to a case brought by South Africa seeking an emergency halt to its offensive in Rafah.

South Africa has also accused Israel of genocide in the Gaza war.

Israel, which has called South Africa's case "wholly unfounded" and "morally repugnant", responded on Friday accusing South Africa of bringing "biased and false claims".

The words of the International Court of Justice (ICJ) have been subject to intense scrutiny since South Africa brought its case and it’s centred around the use of the word “plausible” in the ruling.

In January, the ICJ delivered an interim judgement - and one key paragraph from the ruling drew the most attention: “In the Court’s view, the facts and circumstances... are sufficient to conclude that at least some of the rights claimed by South Africa and for which it is seeking protection are plausible.”

This was interpreted by many, including some legal commentators, to mean that the court had concluded that the claim that Israel was committing genocide in Gaza was “plausible”."

Rather than analogy, I prefer to use evidence from organisations trusted around the world like Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch and UN peacekeepers.

Evidence of Israel's unlawful use of white phosphorus in southern Lebanon as cross-border hostilities escalate

Lebanon: Israel’s White Phosphorous Use Risks Civilian Harm | Human Rights Watch

There's not much to rely on there, other than accusations? I don't agree with the breaking of international law, but make no mistake, Israel is fighting for its very existence, against an enemy who doesn't observe international law!

.  

 

[RecklessAbandon]

1 minute ago, Max Power said:

There's not much to rely on there, other than accusations? I don't agree with the breaking of international law, but make no mistake, Israel is fighting for its very existence, against an enemy who doesn't observe international law!

I mean who to agree with?  Some random on the internet with an apparent lack of understanding of the situation (either intentionally or otherwise) or internationally regarded and recognised independent agencies (including the UN ICJ)?

Also, using the "but they're doing it" argument instantly invalidates your argument. 

[P.K.]

4 hours ago, Max Power said:

You say 'documented genocide' but documented by whom? And if it's genocide, Israel are making a pretty poor job of something that they are quite capable of carrying out!

Quite.

I have found that the easiest way to shut the "genocide" idiots up is to ask them what their alternative strategy to destroy Hamas would be...?

Answer comes there none.

They also blather on about "indiscriminate" use of munitions etc when in this day and age they can land a shell in a dustbin! Plus with the cost of "smart" weapons they certainly wouldn't waste any.

War is a nasty, dirty, miserable business. And taking on an insurgency who deliberately embed themselves in built up areas to use the civilians as human shields has to be the most miserable of the lot...

As the civilians in Gaza have found out.

All those Palestinians who voted in terrorist organisation Hamas to run their affairs should hang their heads in shame. Because what has played out was the inevitable end result imho.

[HeliX]

4 hours ago, Max Power said:

, if your family were to move into a neighbourhood over 100 years ago and were constantly being told by an ever increasing band of people from an opposing religion that they wanted you all dead and pushed into the sea.

If I had been granted that neighbourhood by an outside entity with no rights to declare it mine and proceeded to boot out all the current inhabitants and kill a bunch of them, people might suggest I'm at fault for the resulting unrest.

[Max Power]

51 minutes ago, HeliX said:

If I had been granted that neighbourhood by an outside entity with no rights to declare it mine and proceeded to boot out all the current inhabitants and kill a bunch of them, people might suggest I'm at fault for the resulting unrest.

So the United Nations had no right to declare it?

[Max Power]

2 hours ago, RecklessAbandon said:

I mean who to agree with?  Some random on the internet with an apparent lack of understanding of the situation (either intentionally or otherwise) or internationally regarded and recognised independent agencies (including the UN ICJ)?

Also, using the "but they're doing it" argument instantly invalidates your argument. 

They are still allegations, not facts. Read your own links, although I do accept that we all find it difficult to disseminate the facts, the authors of your links may raise some questions also?  

[HeliX]

8 hours ago, Max Power said:

So the United Nations had no right to declare it?

The Palestinians weren't involved in the decision-making at all despite literally having their homes there. It was, and continues to be, a travesty.

[P.K.]

7 hours ago, HeliX said:

The Palestinians weren't involved in the decision-making at all despite literally having their homes there. It was, and continues to be, a travesty.

@HeliX

So why didn't the Arab League represent their fellow arabs and get them organised?

[Max Power]

12 hours ago, HeliX said:

The Palestinians weren't involved in the decision-making at all despite literally having their homes there. It was, and continues to be, a travesty.

 

4 hours ago, P.K. said:

@HeliX

So why didn't the Arab League represent their fellow arabs and get them organised?

Probably because the area was comparatively sparsely populated at that time, and that it wasn't recognised as a state as it was being managed by the British, on behalf of the UN, as they had driven out the Ottoman Turks during WW1? The fact that the population has grown to the size that it has also debunks the 'genocide' claims.

[P.K.]

29 minutes ago, Max Power said:

Probably because the area was comparatively sparsely populated at that time, and that it wasn't recognised as a state as it was being managed by the British, on behalf of the UN, as they had driven out the Ottoman Turks during WW1? The fact that the population has grown to the size that it has also debunks the 'genocide' claims.

The fact that the area wasn't recognised as a state is one of the reasons the UN chose it.

And as usual HeliX has forgotten that the Jews like the Arabs are also Palestinians. In 1948 the Palestinian population was 68% Arabs and 32% Jews.

 

[Ham_N_Eggs]

2 hours ago, P.K. said:

The fact that the area wasn't recognised as a state is one of the reasons the UN chose it.

And as usual HeliX has forgotten that the Jews like the Arabs are also Palestinians. In 1948 the Palestinian population was 68% Arabs and 32% Jews.

 

Religious affiliation aside, a bunch of Europeans were given land in a Middle Eastern country, that they had no right to be given. 

[HeliX]

2 hours ago, P.K. said:

The fact that the area wasn't recognised as a state is one of the reasons the UN chose it.

And as usual HeliX has forgotten that the Jews like the Arabs are also Palestinians. In 1948 the Palestinian population was 68% Arabs and 32% Jews.

 

The influx of Jewish people into Palestine started in the late 1800s. I haven't "forgotten" anything. The colonisation didn't start when Israel was created.

[Chinahand]

1 hour ago, Ham_N_Eggs said:

Religious affiliation aside, a bunch of Europeans were given land in a Middle Eastern country, that they had no right to be given. 

Jews lived throughout the Middle East North Africa, Turkey and Europe. 

To understand the politics of the Middle East one of the most important issues you need to understand is the growth, policies and collapse of Ottoman empire. 

The self determination of peoples subject to a non-European empire are just as important as colonisation by European ones. 

The self determination of Arab and Jewish peoples subject to Ottoman rule, and the failure of the Ottomans has caused multiple lines on multiple maps to be drawn and redrawn and multiple peoples to move in war and peace. As it ever was. 

The fixation on the Jews as a colonial power is a troupe of a certain left wing mentality I recognise from the student union. Sighs. 

[P.K.]

2 hours ago, HeliX said:

The influx of Jewish people into Palestine started in the late 1800s. I haven't "forgotten" anything. The colonisation didn't start when Israel was created.

Yes you have forgotten something.

This:

9 hours ago, P.K. said:

@HeliX

So why didn't the Arab League represent their fellow arabs and get them organised?

Well?

[Ham_N_Eggs]

4 hours ago, Chinahand said:

Jews lived throughout the Middle East North Africa, Turkey and Europe. 

To understand the politics of the Middle East one of the most important issues you need to understand is the growth, policies and collapse of Ottoman empire. 

The self determination of peoples subject to a non-European empire are just as important as colonisation by European ones. 

The self determination of Arab and Jewish peoples subject to Ottoman rule, and the failure of the Ottomans has caused multiple lines on multiple maps to be drawn and redrawn and multiple peoples to move in war and peace. As it ever was. 

The fixation on the Jews as a colonial power is a troupe of a certain left wing mentality I recognise from the student union. Sighs. 

What's your rebuttal here? I said "Religious affiliation aside, a bunch of Europeans were given land in a Middle Eastern country, that they had no right to be given"

No one is disputing there were Jews on this land but you seen to have brushed over my main point. Are you saying there wasn't a influx of hundreds of thousands of Europeans into the territory now known as Israel? That the UN didn't split this land up granting more land to the Zionists, the majority of whom were European settlers? That by 1948 85% of the Arabs living in Israeli territory didn't become refugees? They weren't forced out of the land they had lived in for countless generations because a bunch of Europeans and Americans decided in favour of a bunch of Europeans?

Sigh all you want China; use the right wing trope of "student politics"*; and try to obfuscate the matter. Hey, you might even be onto something, that it's a massive coincidence that hundreds of thousands of people arrived in a territory and then hundreds of thousands of people, who happened to be living in said territory, all decided to move out of their family homes at the same time. But I doubt it.

*a quick search shows it's been used so many times now in this thread against any detractors of Israel that you ought to find a different attack line. It's coming across a little Jacob Rees-Mogg.