The 'Trans' Issue.

[Mr. Sausages]

I’ve posted this before on here cos it’s useful info, and better coming from someone when it makes you think “I wonder if I’d shag her/him?”

https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cy1gfafSFWB/?igsh=MXFqbXFycTNtenEyMQ==
 

 

[Mr. Sausages]

4 hours ago, Chinahand said:

 

There is no natural way for humans to change pathways (unlike animals like clownfish). 

 

But we do have the same gene that triggers that physical change in other animals.

[La Colombe]

18 minutes ago, Mr. Sausages said:

I’ve posted this before on here cos it’s useful info, and better coming from someone when it makes you think “I wonder if I’d shag her/him?”

https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cy1gfafSFWB/?igsh=MXFqbXFycTNtenEyMQ==
 

 

I would. 

[Chinahand]

19 minutes ago, Mr. Sausages said:

I’ve posted this before on here cos it’s useful info, and better coming from someone when it makes you think “I wonder if I’d shag her/him?”

https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cy1gfafSFWB/?igsh=MXFqbXFycTNtenEyMQ==
 

 

The 1.7% figure is highly controversial 

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12476264/

The true prevalence of intersex is seen to be about 0.018%, almost 100 times lower than Fausto-Sterling s estimate of 1.7%.

[Chinahand]

44 minutes ago, Mr. Sausages said:

5 hours ago, Chinahand said:

 

There is no natural way for humans to change pathways (unlike animals like clownfish). 

 

But we do have the same gene that triggers that physical change in other animals.

Sort of.

https://www.thetech.org/ask-a-geneticist/articles/2004/ask28/

We have many genes which make us Male - usually on the y chromosome. If you don't have these genes, or they are damaged, you will be female.

We don't have genes to trigger a physical change from Male to Female. There is also no way to switch the genes on or off. You either have them or you don't.

Also note this is complex and is really talking about sex only in the organs to produce sperm or eggs, it isn't talking about secondary sexual characteristics. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK22246/

As this article says:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5066260/

Sequential hermaphroditism is a unique reproductive strategy among teleosts [bony fish].

 

[Mr. Sausages]

My limited knowledge comes solely from this radiolab podcast (which states it’s not just fish - go to 31 mins)

https://radiolab.org/podcast/gonads-xy
 

Edited August 3, 2024 by Mr. Sausages

[HeliX]

Edit: not her real account apparently, shame

Edited August 4, 2024 by HeliX

[Chinahand]

Not quite the right place but issues of identity do fit within the trans debate. 

I am struck by Amnesty's language: "identifying as a girl". 

No, how someone "identifies" is going to have no relevance to the Taliban. 

Sex is basically a binary and the likes of the Taliban are uninterested in the nuance between sex and gender. 

Biology does come first, it is messy and complex, but how someone identifies has basically nothing to do with it, people are either on a male or a female developmental pathway with only a tiny proportion intersex and even then in most cases the Taliban would have little problem assigning them.

An intersex boxer like Imane Khelif would be assigned female by the Taliban with external genitalia trumping developmental biochemistry. 

And that's an interesting exception that proves the law. Both identitarians and the likes of the Taliban would ignore the complexity of biochemistry in allowing her to compete in a women's boxing match.

I think both are wrong and that we should start with the complexity of biochemistry when discussing sex and acknowledge its importance when debating gender roles. 

 

 

[Shake me up Judy]

This puts the whole thing in perspective. The identity politics of the West versus the ancient fundamentalism of the Taliban. This is where the debate should be; because for most women in the world, the politics of the 'Trans' issue is irrelevant and the decadent West destroying itself with 'Am I a boy or a girl' navel-gazing and biological doubt. 

[Chinahand]

I pretty firmly think our society has got itself into a confusion over sex and gender. In my view very different things. 

Looks like the UK Supreme Court is going to have a go. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ckgv8v5ge37o

My question: is it possible for someone to pretend to be a woman, and how would you tell?

I think humans have basically the same biology as any other mammal and male and female are useful objective categories based on the development path an organism is on - there are two of them it is a very strong binary with a tiny proportion getting stuck between them. 

I have no problem with gender re-assignment, and think access to single sex spaces should be dealt with mainly via decorum and sensitivity, but there are significant differences when it comes to sport and rape and prisons. 

Ho hum. 

[The Phantom]

La Leche League is an international organization that organizes advocacy, education, and training related to breastfeeding, is present in 80 odd countries and was formed in the mid 50s.   The founder has recently quit, as the group now says it supports everyone who wants to breastfeed, “chestfeed” or “human milk feed”, regardless of sex or “gender identity”. It explains how males can breastfeed by taking milk-stimulating drugs.

Some of the Trustees of the UK branch have recently been suspended due to their lack of support for 'chestfeeding' ultimately meaning the charity has been frozen and unable to continue supporting mothers. 

Insanity. 

[HeliX]

46 minutes ago, The Phantom said:

La Leche League is an international organization that organizes advocacy, education, and training related to breastfeeding, is present in 80 odd countries and was formed in the mid 50s.   The founder has recently quit, as the group now says it supports everyone who wants to breastfeed, “chestfeed” or “human milk feed”, regardless of sex or “gender identity”. It explains how males can breastfeed by taking milk-stimulating drugs.

Some of the Trustees of the UK branch have recently been suspended due to their lack of support for 'chestfeeding' ultimately meaning the charity has been frozen and unable to continue supporting mothers. 

Insanity. 

The stupid thing is that I don't know who they think they are appeasing. None of the trans people I know (MtF or FtM) give two shits whether it's called breastfeeding or not.

[Chinahand]

In my view trans women are trans women and I'm basically fine with that. I'm happy to use the pronouns they wish and as long as decorum and appropriate behaviour is observed there are very few spaces where trans women cannot mix freely with CIS women. Rape shelters and competitive sports are the main areas I think care has to be taken. 

So I disagree to a certain extent with this video. But equally it is pretty accurate and is nuanced, and I think the political point of view is worth considering. 

 

I was reading about acceptable beliefs in law. 

To be protected a belief must:

be genuinely held;

not be an opinion or viewpoint based on the present state of information available;

be about a weighty and substantial aspect of human life and behaviour;

attain a certain level of cogency, seriousness, cohesion and importance; and

be worthy of respect in a democratic society and not incompatible with human dignity or in conflict with the fundamental rights of others.

The last one is an interesting one. Can we keep this debate respectful?

I think trans women are trans women. That is different and distinct from a woman and someone who is intersex or male. The world and biology are complex ... And different opinions can be discussed respectfully. 

[HeliX]

48 minutes ago, Chinahand said:

I think trans women are trans women. That is different and distinct from a woman and someone who is intersex or male. The world and biology are complex ... And different opinions can be discussed respectfully. 

I think the contention of this comes from something else. Reading you write this is not troubling, because I know you're acting in good faith. The problem is that when the likes of a Matt Walsh or a Ben Shapiro say "Trans women aren't women", they're not trying to be definitionally accurate, or biologically accurate, or semantically accurate... they're trying to find a way to discriminate.

Are they biologically different from women? Yes. But the only people who should really give two hoots about that are doctors and biologists. When people outside those groups appear to be getting very het up about defining them as different, it's usually for a nefarious reason. Neil DeGrasse Tyson pinned Shapiro down on this, and I think he sums up the reason it's contentious to hear people arguing about whether trans women are women pretty well here. The whole thing is worth watching, but I've linked a timestamp for the most salient bit.

 

[HeliX]

 

Edited January 21 by HeliX