Tokyo Olympics

[manxman1980]

Sorry, "flair & style" in Golf?  Did they wear a particularly natty piece of knitwear?  

Golf is a good walk spoilt (said someone famous maybe)...

[Ghost Ship]

My God!

Emily Campbell has just won silver for GB in the Women's +87kg weightlifting!

That's a totally unexpected and astonishing result even (or perhaps especially) for people like me who follow weightlifting.  (Crap coverage from BBC of course).

Well done Emily!!!

 

(If anybody is interested, I understand Laurel Hubbard NZ failed to register a total.  She may have failed even to register a lift - BBC explanation is hopeless as usual).

 

Now watching GB women at 2 - 2 against Spain in hockey QF, one minute to go... 

[manxman1980]

1 hour ago, Ghost Ship said:

(If anybody is interested, I understand Laurel Hubbard NZ failed to register a total.  She may have failed even to register a lift - BBC explanation is hopeless as usual).

She didn't complete a valid lift.  

[Ghost Ship]

On 8/1/2021 at 1:48 PM, Chinahand said:

Wonderful entertainment. World record in the women's triple jump, joint golds in the high jump and now the 100m final. Great fun. 

Amazing leap by Rojas in the women's triple jump.  Reminded me of being ten years old and watching Bob Beamon's long jump in the middle of the night with my dad.  And Jonathan Edwards' TJ world record - still the record - in 1995.

I didn't like the sharing of the high jump gold medal though.  I think that was contrary to what the Olympics (and sport in general) is about.  It's a bit like there's no losers, we're all winners

(I also didn't think it was in the spirit of things when Alistair Brownlee helped support Jonathan across the line that time in whichever triathlon event it was - but perhaps that's just me.  ... )

[GreyWolf]

I quite liked that bmx stuff especially the gold medal girl who had to crowdfund to get there, yet they throw money at rowers, sailors and the horsey set,  to me they are not really open to the average Joe and Jane financially but almost every youngster  can have a go on a bike and athletics fastest wins so if you show potential you have a better chance of making it. Didn’t like the skateboarding found that boring.

[Ghost Ship]

Is Quinn the first transgender, non-binary Olympic medallist?  And a gold medal at that.

Football QUINN - Tokyo 2020 Olympics

 

EDIT:  I mean somebody who declared themselves to be transgender prior to winning a medal.  Some athletes (eg Andreas Krieger transitioned after winning medals, plus they did not win an Olympic medal.  Andreas Krieger - Wikipedia

And - I must admit - I'm not sure what Quinn's "transgender" status means in this context in association with "non-binary".  Does this signify a transition from either male or female to neither?

 

 

 

[the stinking enigma]

You'll not see nothing like the mighty quinn.

[the stinking enigma]

You were told years ago, dont act surprised now

[Declan]

10 hours ago, Ghost Ship said:

And - I must admit - I'm not sure what Quinn's "transgender" status means in this context in association with "non-binary".  Does this signify a transition from either male or female to neither

 

Non-binary means they consider themselves to be neither male or female. There's no transition involved, they may always have felt that way.

[John Wright]

10 hours ago, Ghost Ship said:

Is Quinn the first transgender, non-binary Olympic medallist?  And a gold medal at that.

Football QUINN - Tokyo 2020 Olympics

 

EDIT:  I mean somebody who declared themselves to be transgender prior to winning a medal.  Some athletes (eg Andreas Krieger transitioned after winning medals, plus they did not win an Olympic medal.  Andreas Krieger - Wikipedia

And - I must admit - I'm not sure what Quinn's "transgender" status means in this context in association with "non-binary".  Does this signify a transition from either male or female to neither?

 

 

 

Does it matter, to you? to anyone, apart from Quinn?. It’s their truth, their life, their identity.

[Ghost Ship]

1 hour ago, Declan said:

Non-binary means they consider themselves to be neither male or female. There's no transition involved, they may always have felt that way.

Thank you - I know what non-binary means.

What I was uncertain about was the use of "transgender" as well.  I assume that in Quinn's case they were assigned female at birth but have since exercised their choice to be seen as neither gender.  That seems to me to give a different slant to the meaning of "transgender" as opposed to the way it is used for example in the cases of athletes like Laurel Hubbard or Veronica Ivy, both of whom (as I understand it) have fully transitioned from being born male to becoming female.  I may be mistaken, but that seems a different level of transition to me, which renders the use of the term unclear.

Living in the UK and having worked in the public sector (where a work colleague transitioned from male to female) I want to understand the nuances of "trans" terms as it is remarkably easy to inadvertantly offend people.  In this case I would simply have described them (Quinn, not Hubbard and Ivy) as non-binary.  I would not have used the term transgender as well.  I was surprised that it is used in this instance as I'm not certain it adds anything above simply saying that someone is "non-binary".

 

[Ghost Ship]

1 hour ago, John Wright said:

Does it matter, to you? to anyone, apart from Quinn?. It’s their truth, their life, their identity.

Why should you think it "matters" (that's a loaded word and somewhat hostile!) to me that a non-binary athlete wins a Gold medal?

I happen to think it's something noteworthy - and more worthy of note than an Italian winning the men's 100m, the USA failing to make the mens' 4 x 100m (and the Italians winning it!) , or GB's extremely disappointing showing throughout the rowing regatta.  But it's no more worthy of note than Emily Campbell's silver medal in the womens' +109kg weightlifting (which I think is the single most amazing performance of this Olympiad).

Would you rather it was not mentioned and was overlooked and ignored?  Yes - it's "their truth, their life, their identity...", but the world only knows about it because they have made the positive decision to share their identity with the world and have publicly declared it.  It seems a natural and a to be expected consequence of doing that that it might end up being discussed in the context of their winning a Gold medal.  In fact I'm pretty certain that Quinn would be more than happy for themselves to be recognised as the first* ever transgender and non-binary Olympic Gold medallist. 

I'm reasonably sure they are neither embarrassed nor ashamed about it - in fact they are probably extremely proud of it and would welcome its discussion - but your response seems to suggest it's not something that should ever be remarked upon by anyone other than them.  I don't think, with respect, that they would share that opinion.

 

*Assuming they are the first.  I posted in order to seek clarification as signified by " Is... ?"

[Ghost Ship]

To correct any perceived imbalance, congratulations to Burkino Faso's Hugues Fabrice Zango on winning that country's first ever Olympic medal (bronze) in Thursday's mens' triple jump.  It won't "matter" to anyone on the Isle of Man, but well done all the same... 

[John Wright]

2 hours ago, Ghost Ship said:

Why should you think it "matters" (that's a loaded word and somewhat hostile!) to me that a non-binary athlete wins a Gold medal?

I happen to think it's something noteworthy - and more worthy of note than an Italian winning the men's 100m, the USA failing to make the mens' 4 x 100m (and the Italians winning it!) , or GB's extremely disappointing showing throughout the rowing regatta.  But it's no more worthy of note than Emily Campbell's silver medal in the womens' +109kg weightlifting (which I think is the single most amazing performance of this Olympiad).

Would you rather it was not mentioned and was overlooked and ignored?  Yes - it's "their truth, their life, their identity...", but the world only knows about it because they have made the positive decision to share their identity with the world and have publicly declared it.  It seems a natural and a to be expected consequence of doing that that it might end up being discussed in the context of their winning a Gold medal.  In fact I'm pretty certain that Quinn would be more than happy for themselves to be recognised as the first* ever transgender and non-binary Olympic Gold medallist. 

I'm reasonably sure they are neither embarrassed nor ashamed about it - in fact they are probably extremely proud of it and would welcome its discussion - but your response seems to suggest it's not something that should ever be remarked upon by anyone other than them.  I don't think, with respect, that they would share that opinion.

 

*Assuming they are the first.  I posted in order to seek clarification as signified by " Is... ?"

I think you’re missing the point. Completely. It’s great that sportsmen and women and persons, are free to celebrate who and what they are, be open. But as you point out the same is true of national firsts.

You haven’t questioned what it means to be in the Burkino Faso team. You’ve just accepted. But how did they get in the team, patrilineal, matrilineal descent, naturalisation, immigrant. It doesn’t matter. So why should it be any of our business, or matter,  to ask how Quinn got to where they now are in self identifying.

Thats not hiding, being embarrassed, or anything negative. It’s the casual prurient interest inherent in your questions and seeking clarification that’s embarrassing and negative. It’s a bit like asking “how black” or “how much from mum and dad” if someone says they’re mixed race, or asking, if they say they’re bi, “how many men/women have you fancied”.

[Ghost Ship]

The question I asked was whether Quinn was the first transgender non-binary Olympic Gold medallist.  Three possible answers would be "Yes", "No" or "Difficult to say".

I did not ask whether Hugues Fabrice Zango was the first-ever medallist for Burkino Faso because I already knew that he was.  And you are right -  neither did I ask what it was like to be a member of the Burkino Faso team or how Zango was qualified to represent them.  But nor did I ask what it was like to be in the Canadian team, or what it was like to be Quinn, or anything about the journey they had followed to get to where they are now in terms of self-identification (which you mistakenly seem to be implying that I did ask as you declare it is none of my business?). 

I didn't ask those questions about either Zango or Quinn because I haven't got the slightest interest whatsoever in the answer to any of them.  I'm only interested in the athletic performance and what training they have undergone to get there - I am profoundly uninterested in their personal journeys or what it "feels like" to win a Gold medal - I'm mostly interested in HOW they won it*.  When Jill Douglas asks: "Tell us Laura, what's it like to win your sixth Gold Medal and to be Britiain's only woman Gold medallist at three Olympic Games?" I turn off.  Not because I don't think Laura Kenny is fantastic - because she certainly is - but because I don't care what it feels like.  Likewise I don't care what it feels like to be Quinn (or Zango or even Jason Kenny), or how they got to represent Canada (or wherever), or how they came to self-identify.

In the case of this current Olympics, which I believe is the first at which transgender athletes have openly competed, I fail to see why referring to the apparently first such medal winner should attract such hostility from you.  I am sure that members of the transgender non-binary community will be happy to celebrate it and I doubt they would consider any mention of it to be off-limits to non-members of that community.  If you think there's a "casual prurient interest inherent" in my question, I'd be grateful if you could be more specific and point out where it lies.  

Should I have posed my question as:  "Wow!  Is Quinn the first transgender non-binary Olympic Gold medallist?"?  Would that tiny "Wow!" have made it more acceptable to you?

If you didn't like my secondary question asking whether the term "transgender" adds anything to the description "non-binary", then just say so and don't accuse me of being prurient.  As I said in my earlier reply to Declan, I'm aware that people can easily be offended by even the unintentional mis-use of some of these terms and I was seeking clarification as to whether "transgender" correctly applies to non-binary people.  That is because it is not clear to me whether or not "non-binary" is a gender, or whether it is something else.  Thus I am not certain that "transgender" - as in crossing or changing gender - is an appropriate term.  If you are more knowledgeable than I am in this area, I'd be grateful to know the answer and be educated further.  I'm sure it would be helpful for other people to know and to understand as well.

 

*A possible exception would be Emily Campbell.  I found her story quite interesting because weightlifting has no (or virtually no) central funding from sources like the lottery.  The shotputter Sophie McKinna is another athlete who I think is without central funding and had to resort to crowdfunding to support her training programme.  Their background "stories" are interesting and worth hearing, but those stories also impact directly on their achievements and included significant obstacles that had to be overcome.  I doubt that Quinn had to defeat similarly significant and practical obstacles in their journey to the Olympics - I suspect they have been supported fully by their nation.  But if you know I'm wrong I'm happy to be corrected