Brexit Penny Dropping?

[RecklessAbandon]

1 minute ago, The Voice of Reason said:

 

Well he doesn’t. What he says it that Remainers have every right to moan on about the Brexit result, for years or decades even ( I guess)

He is of course right,in the same way that those supporting Brexit have an equal right to gloat for however long they choose.

 

 

Gloating about hitting yourself and everyone else around you in the balls is not the strut you think it is.

[manxman1980]

1 hour ago, The Voice of Reason said:

 

Well he doesn’t. What he says it that Remainers have every right to moan on about the Brexit result, for years or decades even ( I guess)

He is of course right,in the same way that those supporting Brexit have an equal right to gloat for however long they choose.

 

 

You can celebrate absolutely, however, I also expect anyone who does so to take responsibility if Brexit turns out to be a disaster or anything less than was promised.  Are you willing to do that or will you just claim that there is a good Brexit but the leaders mucked it up?

[RecklessAbandon]

7 minutes ago, manxman1980 said:

You can celebrate absolutely, however, I also expect anyone who does so to take responsibility if Brexit turns out to be a disaster or anything less than was promised.  Are you willing to do that or will you just claim that there is a good Brexit but the leaders mucked it up?

"Awwww man, we had such a good Brexit for you but we fucked it up"

[Auntie Depressant]

And then we all buggered off and left you to it. 

[The Voice of Reason]

3 hours ago, manxman1980 said:

You can celebrate absolutely, however, I also expect anyone who does so to take responsibility if Brexit turns out to be a disaster or anything less than was promised.  Are you willing to do that or will you just claim that there is a good Brexit but the leaders mucked it up?

The celebration is for leaving the clutches of the EU. Celebrating the honouring of the wishes of the majority that voted for Brexit.

Am I to understand that you want me to take responsibility for the implementation of Brexit and the minutiae of it all? Things  I have no control over?

Yes that certainly sounds very reasonable.

 

I  ( together with a majority, I would say ) want a National Health Service. Does  that mean that I, or us, should be accountable for any mis management, bad medical decisions, careless employment  practices and wasteful procurement policies etc within the NHS?

 

[manxman1980]

1 hour ago, The Voice of Reason said:

The celebration is for leaving the clutches of the EU. Celebrating the honouring of the wishes of the majority that voted for Brexit.

Should we spend the next four years celebrating Labour winning the UK general election? 

It is nonsense to excessively celebrate the outcome of any democratic process.

1 hour ago, The Voice of Reason said:

Am I to understand that you want me to take responsibility for the implementation of Brexit and the minutiae of it all? Things  I have no control over?

Yes that certainly sounds very reasonable.

Not just you but everyone who insists on celebrating/gloating about the result.

Those who voted to Leave the EU did so without any clear vision of what the future would look like.

If the future is great, then please keep celebrating.   If it is a shitshow then take responsibility and own your choice.

1 hour ago, The Voice of Reason said:

I  ( together with a majority, I would say ) want a National Health Service. Does  that mean that I, or us, should be accountable for any mis management, bad medical decisions, careless employment  practices and wasteful procurement policies etc within the NHS?

Did you vote in elections that returned MP's who were responsible for the decline in the NHS?  If you voted for ineptitude then yes you are in part responsible. 

[The Voice of Reason]

43 minutes ago, manxman1980 said:

Should we spend the next four years celebrating Labour winning the UK general election? 

It is nonsense to excessively celebrate the outcome of any democratic process.

Not just you but everyone who insists on celebrating/gloating about the result.

Those who voted to Leave the EU did so without any clear vision of what the future would look like.

If the future is great, then please keep celebrating.   If it is a shitshow then take responsibility and own your choice.

Did you vote in elections that returned MP's who were responsible for the decline in the NHS?  If you voted for ineptitude then yes you are in part responsible. 

Bit of a poor response if you don’t mind me saying.

“It is nonsense to excessively celebrate the outcome of any democratic process.”

To which I would reply “ it is nonsense to excessively bemoan the outcome of any democratic process” ( more nonsensical than to celebrate it I would suggest)

Yes no one had a clear vision of what the future would look like upon leaving the EU.  But it was pretty clear how the future for the UK would look like staying within the EU and the electorate rejected that particular vision.

That bit about voting for MP’s being responsible for the decline in the NHS is just ridiculous. Nobody knowingly votes for ineptitude.

Not your best post I’m afraid.

 

[manxman1980]

5 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said:

Bit of a poor response if you don’t mind me saying.

“It is nonsense to excessively celebrate the outcome of any democratic process.”

To which I would reply “ it is nonsense to excessively bemoan the outcome of any democratic process” ( more nonsensical than to celebrate it I would suggest)

I take it you never complained about the UK being in the EU up until the referendum campaign then?

In most democratic processes you have the opportunity to vote for someone or something different in a reasonable time frame.  Not so with EU membership. 

5 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said:

Yes no one had a clear vision of what the future would look like upon leaving the EU.  But it was pretty clear how the future for the UK would look like staying within the EU and the electorate rejected that particular vision.

Which is not what I am arguing.  The electorate were made promises about what leaving would mean.  I hope they were truthful but so far the evidence is not great.

5 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said:

That bit about voting for MP’s being responsible for the decline in the NHS is just ridiculous. Nobody knowingly votes for ineptitude.

People do vote for candidates and parties who have a track record in some areas.  

The Conservative Party for instance, and to a degree New Labour, started to privatise the NHS.  A poor decision and one which would mean that I would not vote for either party if the NHS was such a key topic.

5 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said:

Not your best post I’m afraid.

Are you some form of judge now? 

[The Voice of Reason]

13 minutes ago, manxman1980 said:

 

Are you some form of judge now? 

Well I’m a member of this forum, and you know, a lot  of the posts have a judgemental element to them. 

People expressing different opinions, “I think you are wrong”  that sort of judgement thing. 

It kind of goes with the territory.

It’s even been applied to me, would you believe ?
 

 

[woolley]

15 hours ago, code99 said:

Last time I checked, this was still a free country. Just like you, I am entitled to express my political opinions. 

But it's the same stale old nonsense regurgitated by various Guardian hacks and their ilk. Nothing new, and just exactly as you said: Etc, etc, as evidenced superbly by......

15 hours ago, P.K. said:

Ian Hislop sticks it to the Woolster:

https://www.facebook.com/share/v/19SajT5Sa5/

.... dear old PK serving up an 8 year old, stone cold turgid helping of self-satisfied numpty, Hislop in a lather banging on about the sky falling in because of Brexit. He seems to be having some kind of meltdown rather than "sticking it" to anyone, yet PK keeps these ancient clips on hand ready to roll out apparently forever.

Of course we remember Project Fear. Planes wouldn't fly. Business as we knew it would die. British tourists wouldn't be able to holiday abroad, despite the fact they are doing so in record numbers. It was all lies. Doomsday never happened, and we've had Covid, global shortages, increased inflation and war since then. It's fine outside the EU.

[manxman1980]

8 hours ago, woolley said:

Of course we remember Project Fear. Planes wouldn't fly. Business as we knew it would die. British tourists wouldn't be able to holiday abroad, despite the fact they are doing so in record numbers. It was all lies. Doomsday never happened, and we've had Covid, global shortages, increased inflation and war since then. It's fine outside the EU.

Sure, things have not been as bad as they could have been.  The problem with your assessment is that we can only compare the past with current events.  We don't know whether the UK would have faired better as a member of the EU during Covid and the global shortages and high inflation that it caused (inflation could also have been forced up by Brexit).

We don't know whether the war in Ukraine may have been different had the EU not been destabilised by the UK leaving.  Remember that report into Russian interference with the referendum?  The one that Johnson buried.  Has anyone seen it since?  

We are seeing increased cases of Russian interference with European elections (Moldova & Georgia) plus authoritarian leaders like Orban being cosy with Putin.  Would the UK being a member of the EU still have changed that?  Probably not but Russia may not have been so bold.

There are a lot of business who did suffer in the wake of Brexit.  Mostly SME's who simply could not cope with the changes to importing and exporting post-Brexit.  There are also others who adapted and thrived.  There are some who are thriving but kicking themselves because they now realise that they could have had easy access to the EU market as well as trading with other countries.  

Brexit certainly had an impact on British politics.  Again, hard to say if this has been a good thing or bad thing.  We certainly have had a spate of poor PM's and a lack of "grown-ups" in the room.  That does not look like changing any time soon.  

I think the situation has stabilised for the moment and other global events are having more of an impact.  We are now waiting to see if the long term is a success or not. 

 

[code99]

9 hours ago, woolley said:

But it's the same stale old nonsense regurgitated by various Guardian hacks and their ilk. Nothing new, and just exactly as you said: Etc, etc, as evidenced superbly by.......

Not just The Guardian. Almost all serious economic journalists have been saying this for some time. E g,:

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2024-03-19/brexit-s-lasting-economic-and-financial-damage-looks-inescapable

Etc, etc.

The problem is that the extremists views of the far-right have increasingly become mainstream and get written-up in traditional right-wing newspapers.  

[RecklessAbandon]

13 hours ago, The Voice of Reason said:

That bit about voting for MP’s being responsible for the decline in the NHS is just ridiculous. Nobody knowingly votes for ineptitude.

The irony of a Brexiteer (which you will remember was being delivered by the very same MPs responsible for the decline of the NHS) saying that is priceless.

"I had no idea the inept clown shoes who have been screwing the nation over for decades would lie to us and then drop the ball so epically".

[RecklessAbandon]

9 hours ago, woolley said:

But it's the same stale old nonsense regurgitated by various Guardian hacks and their ilk. Nothing new, and just exactly as you said: Etc, etc...

If the evidence was right then, and its still right now - its not our fault if you still choose to ignore reality.

[P.K.]

12 hours ago, woolley said:

.... dear old PK serving up an 8 year old, stone cold turgid helping of self-satisfied numpty, Hislop in a lather banging on about the sky falling in because of Brexit. He seems to be having some kind of meltdown rather than "sticking it" to anyone, yet PK keeps these ancient clips on hand ready to roll out apparently forever.

Of course we remember Project Fear. Planes wouldn't fly. Business as we knew it would die. British tourists wouldn't be able to holiday abroad, despite the fact they are doing so in record numbers. It was all lies. Doomsday never happened, and we've had Covid, global shortages, increased inflation and war since then. It's fine outside the EU.

Happy days!

Hislop having a "meltdown" - dear me,  you always were something of a drama queen...

Have to say I never believed a word about the excesses of "Project Fear" as you call it. I was too concerned with "Project Reality" to bother with that nonsense. But trust you to drag it up time after time presumably to try and start a race to the bottom.

Of course those who voted for brexit didn't have the faintest idea what they were voting for. How could they have? I have to say the Ipsos Mori poll in the days before the vote came as a surprise to me. Showing as it did that over half of those supporting brexit gave the reason behind their vote as "Immigration" with the much hackneyed brexiteer's favourite "get out of jail free card" called "Sovereignty" coming in a poor third with the "Economy" between them.

Sure "Immigration" has a much darker unspoken side to it the evidence of which we have seen with the recent riots. But surely the UK hasn't got 8m racists? So I am forced to conclude that a lot of folks were either too stupid, too gullible or possibly both to see through nonsense like this:

Which unfortunately is entirely typical of the kind of drivel about the EU spouted by the UK right wing press in the literally decades of UK membership before the vote. I guess if you throw enough mud eventually some of it sticks. Now about the legitimacy of the brexit vote...

I found the BBC program on immigration last night absolutely fascinating. But also annoying showing as it did Nick "Turncoat" Cleggy giving my vote to Cameron and his cabinet of millionaires. Watch it if you can.