Beginning of the end for Boris Johnson

[manxman1980]

For anyone who thinks that Boris Johnson is still a good leader I would like to refer you to his behaviour at Prime Ministers Questions earlier this week.

Take a look at the video from PMQ's linked below at the following times:

1) 21.54 behaves like a teenager being scolded when they know that there is no punishment to follow.

2) 23.52 he looks at his watch whilst being questioned by Ian Blackford as if he has somewhere else to be (possibly another party was about to get underway?)

 

 

[The Voice of Reason]

11 hours ago, manxman1980 said:

Very detailed answer...

If your issue with the Tories was Thatcher and the closing of heavy industry and reducing the power/influence of the Trade Unions I really fail to see how you can look at the current Tory Party and think it is any better.

Yes the Tories have always looked after their own. Quelle surprise!

Going back to Thatcher either you weren’t around at the time or you are deliberately choosing to ignore the era when she effectively created a civil war. The battle of Orgreave for example and setting family against family. Establishing a police state when I couldn’t drive from county to county without being stopped by a ring of steel and being asked what the purpose of my journey was.

Just imagine being stopped every few miles, when driving from Douglas to Castletown, say

Furthermore her willingness to sacrifice hundreds of young mens lives in the Falklands ( on both sides) to ensure she was re elected when heading for defeat.

That is beyond contempt and if there is any justice she will be rotting in hell for it.

So yes, despite all his faults, and I am no apologist for him, Johnson has not sunk to the depths of that evil woman and her then cronies.  Looking at your watch during PMQ’s does not really begin to compare.

As one who lived through that period I can say that as much as I despise them the Tory party of now is “better”

Edited January 21, 2022 by The Voice of Reason

[alpha-acid]

2 hours ago, The Voice of Reason said:

Yes the Tories have always looked after their own. Quelle surprise!

Going back to Thatcher either you weren’t around at the time or you are deliberately choosing to ignore the era when she effectively created a civil war. The battle of Orgreave for example and setting family against family. Establishing a police state when I couldn’t drive from county to county without being stopped by a ring of steel and being asked what the purpose of my journey was.

Just imagine being stopped every few miles, when driving from Douglas to Castletown, say

Furthermore her willingness to sacrifice hundreds of young mens lives in the Falklands ( on both sides) to ensure she was re elected when heading for defeat.

That is beyond contempt and if there is any justice she will be rotting in hell for it.

So yes, despite all his faults, and I am no apologist for him, Johnson has not sunk to the depths of that evil woman and her then cronies.  Looking at your watch during PMQ’s does not really begin to compare.

As one who lived through that period I can say that as much as I despise them the Tory party of now is “better”

You are totally  wrong Thatcher recovered Britain from disaster, the Unions had such a grip on that nobody could anything. I was working in London at the time when there were Blackouts and working week was cut to 3 days a week , petrol was rationed  just like WW2 all down to the Unions, some have short memories

[Lost Login]

1 hour ago, alpha-acid said:

You are totally  wrong Thatcher recovered Britain from disaster, the Unions had such a grip on that nobody could anything. I was working in London at the time when there were Blackouts and working week was cut to 3 days a week , petrol was rationed  just like WW2 all down to the Unions, some have short memories

I hated Thatcher and her cohorts and still do.  Whilst saying that I also realise that the likes of the prints unions and miners had too much power and did require reigning back. However for Thatcher and the likes of McGregor it was not just a case of winning the war it was a case of also destroying the industry as well for ideological reasons. That resulted in the destruction of both the UK coal industry and the UK Steel industry. She could have won her battle with the unions without also destroying industries

It should also remembered that Thatcher was initially greatly disliked and really only remained in power and won her second general election due to the Falklands war. A needless war that was caused by the Argentinians invading but they only did so because the UK had given every indication that the UK no longer cared about the Falklands. If Argentina had not invaded the chances are the UK would have given up sovereignty over the Islands many years ago and saved hundreds of millions if not billions.

Edited January 22, 2022 by Lost Login

[prism10]

13 hours ago, alpha-acid said:

You are totally  wrong Thatcher recovered Britain from disaster, the Unions had such a grip on that nobody could anything. I was working in London at the time when there were Blackouts and working week was cut to 3 days a week , petrol was rationed  just like WW2 all down to the Unions, some have short memories

Blackouts and working week being cut happened under Heath.

 

Winter of discontent did happen in 1978.

 

You were not the only one alive in the 1970s.

 

I also remember whole numbers of factories closing down in the 1980s.

[code99]

On 1/21/2022 at 10:07 AM, manxman1980 said:

Don't forget those who want to be wealthy.  This is one of the great lies that the Tory Party continue to pitch to those who are not in the upper echelons.  They like to push the idea that with them in power then everyone has the chance to develop their own wealth through low taxation, less "red tape" and a Government that does not interfere.  In reality they are only interested in looking after their own and those who are poor have no chance under a Tory Government as they slash taxes for the wealthy and fund that by cutting benefits for the poor.

Even today they are ignoring rising inflation which has a disproportionate impact on the "lower classes" who have less disposable income. 

The decision to write off that amount due to fraud is unbelievable!  How come they can just chuck that money away but cannot fund free school meals for children from poor homes?

I would hazard a guess that the fraud has been conducted by Tory Party donors. 

They have certainly improved from the days of Corbyn & Abbott!  I notice that the Tory supporting media are still trying to drive a wedge between Starmer and Rayner which does suggest that they are getting worried about a more unified Labour party under competent leadership.

Agreed.

It is a national scandal that there is supposedly no money for the poorest in society, including children, whereas there is plenty of dosh for Tory donors and very little accountability for squandering taxpayers’ money.

I hold no faith in much anticipated Sue Gray’s report, but she does have a formidable reputation, so we will see. Regardless, the scales are (hopefully) finally falling off the eyes of Northern England’s voters, and the voters are beginning to understand that they have been electorally conned. The empty promise of ‘levelling up’ was little more than hollow opportunistic electioneering BS. After all, telling appealing pokies is something that BoJo and his dysfunctional grotesque sham of a government do daily.

Following the years of institutionalised economic cruelty (Tory austerity policies invented by two multi-millionaires - Cameron and Osborne) against the vast majority of the UK population, the Tory Party should have been out of power for a generation. Unfortunately, under Corbyn, the Labour Party had little chance of gaining power, but now things are looking much more optimistic for the next UK GE.

Edited January 23, 2022 by code99

[Freggyragh]

Britain in the seventies was in a mess. Up until then its economy was based on the very unequal trade and administrative arrangements of a trade block where one state (Britain) set the rules, known as the British Empire. As difficult as it was for the colonised to recover from empire, so was it for the colonisers. Britain's economy was geared up for processing raw materials from the empire and paying for it with tariff protected manufactured goods. 

Once the Arabs started charging for oil and newly independent countries decided to manufacture their own goods, the game was up. This was always going to result in the wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Heath, Thatcher and Major understood that free trade with Europe was the way out of the crisis. Thatcher's Single Market and successful appeals to Japan and others for investment turned the corner for the UK. Sadly, the cretinous English newspapers could never acknowledge the huge success of the EU. Now the tories have saved their masters from the European Tax Directive they will move onto something else.

Before you know it we'll see the masses demanding the asset stripping and flogging off the NHS & BBC, and then the freezing of pensions and social care, further cuts to benefits and workers rights, and then the privatisation of education, prisons and community policing. 

And as the quality of life of whatever is left in Britain deteriorates, they'll of course be blaming it all on foreigners. 

 

 

 

Edited January 23, 2022 by Freggyragh

[The Voice of Reason]

1 hour ago, Freggyragh said:

Britain in the seventies was in a mess. Up until then its economy was based on the very unequal trade and administrative arrangements of a trade block where one state (Britain) set the rules, known as the British Empire. As difficult as it was for the colonised to recover from empire, so was it for the colonisers. Britain's economy was geared up for processing raw materials from the empire and paying for it with tariff protected manufactured goods. 

Once the Arabs started charging for oil and newly independent countries decided to manufacture their own goods, the game was up. This was always going to result in the wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Heath, Thatcher and Major understood that free trade with Europe was the way out of the crisis. Thatcher's Single Market and successful appeals to Japan and others for investment turned the corner for the UK. Sadly, the cretinous English newspapers could never acknowledge the huge success of the EU. Now the tories have saved their masters from the European Tax Directive they will move onto something else.

Before you know it we'll see the masses demanding the asset stripping and flogging off the NHS & BBC, and then the freezing of pensions and social care, further cuts to benefits and workers rights, and then the privatisation of education, prisons and community policing. 

And as the quality of life of whatever is left in Britain deteriorates, they'll of course be blaming it all on foreigners. 

 

Absolute tosh. “ The huge success of the EU” don’t make me laugh.

As for the quality of life deteriorating in
Britain, it won’t post Brexit. 

But as an aside taking your assumption for the nonsense it is,Britain is the most tolerant of nations in welcoming foreigners and has prospered for it and long may it continue.  The fact that it won’t now discriminate over who comes in because they come from a particular block of land has to be a good thing. 
 

Who are these masses demanding the flogging off of the NHS ,the freezing of benefits and cuts to workers rights etc?. Certainly no one I know

It may not suit your narrative but Britain (including the IOM ) which has its faults, is still one of the best places in the world to live. 
 

 

[Lost Login]

2 hours ago, The Voice of Reason said:

Absolute tosh. “ The huge success of the EU” don’t make me laugh.

As for the quality of life deteriorating in
Britain, it won’t post Brexit. 

But as an aside taking your assumption for the nonsense it is,Britain is the most tolerant of nations in welcoming foreigners and has prospered for it and long may it continue.  The fact that it won’t now discriminate over who comes in because they come from a particular block of land has to be a good thing. 
 

Who are these masses demanding the flogging off of the NHS ,the freezing of benefits and cuts to workers rights etc?. Certainly no one I know

It may not suit your narrative but Britain (including the IOM ) which has its faults, is still one of the best places in the world to live. 
 

 

The EU in my view has been a spectacular success if judged on the reason originally behind it which was to promote reconciliation and closer ties and co-operation etc after the second world war so that there was far less likelihood of future conflict. Yes there is a fair bit wrong with the EU but it has got an awful lot right, most notably one of the longest periods of peace that the region has seen. 

As for the quality of life deteriorating post Brexit that is a matter of conjecture but it is expected to at least in the short term as inflation outstrips earnings  I hope the quality of life does improve as pre Brexit the UK's quality of Life was ranked pretty low and it was nothing to do with being part of the EU. We are basically starting from a low basis the law of averages means there must be a greater chance of it rising. 

If the UK is the most tolerant of nations in welcoming foreigners I would hate to think what other countries are like. What did Boris do last week to try and get wavering supporters and tabloids back on side? He attacked immigration again. France accept far more refugees seeking asylum each year than the UK whilst the UK just tries to make it extremely difficult to apply for asylum.   

Flogging of NHS, freezing of benefits, cuts to workers rights. Try glancing at the right wing press or reading what many conservative or right wing politicians call for, You say and I believe you that because of the Miners you would never vote Tory but you give the impression you would happily vote UKIP or whatever Farage calls his latest political party. 

[The Voice of Reason]

9 hours ago, Lost Login said:

If the UK is the most tolerant of nations in welcoming foreigners I would hate to think what other countries are like. What did Boris do last week to try and get wavering supporters and tabloids back on side? He attacked immigration again. France accept far more refugees seeking asylum each year than the UK whilst the UK just tries to make it extremely difficult to apply for asylum.   

Flogging of NHS, freezing of benefits, cuts to workers rights. Try glancing at the right wing press or reading what many conservative or right wing politicians call for, You say and I believe you that because of the Miners you would never vote Tory but you give the impression you would happily vote UKIP or whatever Farage calls his latest political party. 

And why have the far right parties in other European countries ( eg Vox in Spain, Freedom Party in Austria ) had much more electoral success than any such parties in Britain? In fact similar parties don’t really exist in Britain, never mind getting any votes.

Such parties have formed an unholy alliance in the EU Parliament. Brexit should help keep this cancer from our shores.

Re your point about the right wing press. Of course they will pursue a right wing agenda as left leaning journals will follow theirs. Not quite sure what you are getting at.

Finally Farage. No I wouldn’t vote for any party he led or is involved with. There would be no need to. He has achieved the result that the majority of those voting wanted, Brexit. ( His raison d’etre if you like.) 

I doubt anyone could name another single UKIP /Brexit Party policy. ( without Googling or web search)

Edited January 24, 2022 by The Voice of Reason
Added Google stuff

[manxman1980]

3 hours ago, The Voice of Reason said:

And why have the far right parties in other European countries ( eg Vox in Spain, Freedom Party in Austria ) had much more electoral success than any such parties in Britain? In fact similar parties don’t really exist in Britain, never mind getting any votes.

I suspect that the answer lies with the UK Electoral System.  First past the post often ends up in a two party system as people often choose to vote for the lesser of two evils rather than for their preferred candidate/party.

I have lived in three UK constituency's.  Two were Labour strongholds (and still are), the other was a Tory stronghold.  If you did not agree with the incumbent party in these seats the best chance to get them out was to pick the other party (so Tory in a Labour seat and Labour in a Tory seat).  The other parties really struggled to get any votes especially the minor parties such as the English Democrats and various others whose names I forget.  Even the "tier 2" parties such as Lib Dems and Greens couldn't make any in-roads.  There is some evidence to say that this may be shifting now but that is in large part to the smaller parties working co-operating in certain seats to stop splitting the votes. 

I am not familiar enough with the electoral processes throughout the rest of the EU, however, both Germany and France for instance have a very different process which seems to allow more choice and thereby allowing more "extreme" parties to garner votes.

3 hours ago, The Voice of Reason said:

Such parties have formed an unholy alliance in the EU Parliament. Brexit should help keep this cancer from our shores.

UKIP was part of that alliance was it not?  If so that suggests the cancer is very much present in the UK now.

3 hours ago, The Voice of Reason said:

Finally Farage. No I wouldn’t vote for any party he led or is involved with. There would be no need to. He has achieved the result that the majority of those voting wanted, Brexit. ( His raison d’etre if you like.) 

I doubt anyone could name another single UKIP /Brexit Party policy. ( without Googling or web search)

Farage is still talking about standing for election again with a new party but again it appears to be heavily focused around Brexit/Immigration based on what I have seen.

In relation to UKIP/Brexit Party policies there were some, and you are right I cannot recall them, but realistically both these parties were focused on making Brexit happened.  Realistically I think they achieved far more than they thought possible having really been established to put pressure on the Tories.  If I recall correctly many of their other policies were based around Conservative values.

[The Voice of Reason]

7 hours ago, manxman1980 said:

 

Farage is still talking about standing for election again with a new party but again it appears to be heavily focused around Brexit/Immigration based on what I have seen.

In relation to UKIP/Brexit Party policies there were some, and you are right I cannot recall them, but realistically both these parties were focused on making Brexit happened.  Realistically I think they achieved far more than they thought possible having really been established to put pressure on the Tories.  If I recall correctly many of their other policies were based around Conservative values.

There is the  perception that UKIP/ Brexit Party were on the right of the political spectrum and to be honest I think that is  correct. 
However on the one core issue that they were identified with, Brexit, this cut across political  affiliations. 
I have leanings that most would describe as socialist ( for example I am a long time member of the Fabian Society) and am heartily fed up with Remainers trying to portray those in favour of Brexit as xenophobic Colonel Blimp type characters.

Do not forget that Tony Benn, one of the most progressive socialists of his time was fiercely against Britain’s membership of the EU.

[manxman1980]

2 hours ago, The Voice of Reason said:

I have leanings that most would describe as socialist ( for example I am a long time member of the Fabian Society) and am heartily fed up with Remainers trying to portray those in favour of Brexit as xenophobic Colonel Blimp type characters.

Most of us "remainers" know that not everyone who voted for brexit is xenophobic. 

You will have had your own views on the EU which is fine.

What many of us do believe though is that all racists will have voted for brexit because the media sold them the lie of schrodingers immigrant.

That is the immigrant who comes to the UK to steal your job whilst simultaneously doing nothing but sit on their arse and claim benefits. 

They are the immigrants who work in public services whilst being accused of being a strain on the same public services. 

Don't forget Farage and the fake claims he made about Turkey joining the EU which was deliberately playing on race.

So you may not be xenophobic but many of your fellow leave supporters are.

[Lost Login]

6 hours ago, manxman1980 said:

Most of us "remainers" know that not everyone who voted for brexit is xenophobic. 

You will have had your own views on the EU which is fine.

What many of us do believe though is that all racists will have voted for brexit because the media sold them the lie of schrodingers immigrant.

That is the immigrant who comes to the UK to steal your job whilst simultaneously doing nothing but sit on their arse and claim benefits. 

They are the immigrants who work in public services whilst being accused of being a strain on the same public services. 

Don't forget Farage and the fake claims he made about Turkey joining the EU which was deliberately playing on race.

So you may not be xenophobic but many of your fellow leave supporters are.

There are also plenty who might be viewed as left wing or traditionally labour voters who are xenophobic. I would guess that age, education and work might have a significant influence on people's views

[manxman1980]

18 minutes ago, Lost Login said:

There are also plenty who might be viewed as left wing or traditionally labour voters who are xenophobic. I would guess that age, education and work might have a significant influence on people's views

I didn't say anything about left/right views but simply that those who are xenophobic would have voted in favour with Brexit.

I understand why some Brexiteers would feel uncomfortable with this but it is accurate.