Lucy Letby

[woolley]

I tried to find an old thread about her to post this in but couldn't find one. Then I realised that my search was pointless because old threads are now archived and cannot be revived. That's a shame.......

Anyway, I found this article disquieting on several levels. The Guardian, along with everyone else, has been demonising her for years, and then out of the blue they present this:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/article/2024/jul/09/lucy-letby-evidence-experts-question

[Passing Time]

1 hour ago, woolley said:

I tried to find an old thread about her to post this in but couldn't find one. Then I realised that my search was pointless because old threads are now archived and cannot be revived. That's a shame.......

Anyway, I found this article disquieting on several levels. The Guardian, along with everyone else, has been demonising her for years, and then out of the blue they present this:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/article/2024/jul/09/lucy-letby-evidence-experts-question

to be fair they have a point

[wrighty]

Try reading this one - I haven’t read the Guardian article in this thread, but I suspect it is similar to this.

https://archive.is/AWpyz
 

Doubtful conviction indeed. What was the motive?

[quilp]

53 minutes ago, wrighty said:

Try reading this one - I haven’t read the Guardian article in this thread, but I suspect it is similar to this.

https://archive.is/AWpyz
 

Doubtful conviction indeed. What was the motive?

What was the motive in Beverly Allitt's case, or Shipman's, or Charles Cullen in the US? And the many other medics charged and convicted for similar offences? There'll be a few pointers in those cases as to why these crimes are committed.

"I killed them on purpose because I wasn't good enough..."

This, amongst other scribblings found in her possession. Why would she write that?

Edited July 20, 2024 by quilp

[wrighty]

27 minutes ago, quilp said:

What was the motive in Beverly Allitt's case, or Shipman's, or Charles Cullen in the US? And the many other medics charged and convicted for similar offences? There'll be a few pointers in those cases as to why these crimes are committed.

"I killed them on purpose because I wasn't good enough..."

This, amongst other scribblings found in her possession. Why would she write that?

You’ve probably never been directly involved in a death due to something you did or didn’t do, or may not have done right, or may not have done quickly enough. I have. And you replay those events over and over - did I miss something, if I’d done something differently would they still be alive etc.

Combine that with a police investigation, and everyone seemingly thinking you’re guilty, then yes, I can see how those natural doubts in your own performance could spiral into “it must have been me, (therefore) I killed them because I wasn’t good enough. 
 

Shipman - initial motivation was to end suffering, then I think he got to like it, then money. Allitt - wasn’t she just mad? And I don’t know the US one. I don’t think Letby is thought to be insane. 

[Albert Tatlock]

3 minutes ago, wrighty said:

You’ve probably never been directly involved in a death due to something you did or didn’t do, or may not have done right, or may not have done quickly enough. I have. And you replay those events over and over - did I miss something, if I’d done something differently would they still be alive etc.

 

It's a horrible feeling, that many a marshal even doing everything right at a fatal, goes through.

Lasts a lifetime unfortunately.

[woolley]

2 hours ago, wrighty said:

Try reading this one - I haven’t read the Guardian article in this thread, but I suspect it is similar to this.

https://archive.is/AWpyz
 

Doubtful conviction indeed. What was the motive?

Yes, the New Yorker article is mentioned in the Guardian article. It is all very troubling.

[woolley]

49 minutes ago, wrighty said:

You’ve probably never been directly involved in a death due to something you did or didn’t do, or may not have done right, or may not have done quickly enough. I have. And you replay those events over and over - did I miss something, if I’d done something differently would they still be alive etc.

Combine that with a police investigation, and everyone seemingly thinking you’re guilty, then yes, I can see how those natural doubts in your own performance could spiral into “it must have been me, (therefore) I killed them because I wasn’t good enough. 
 

Shipman - initial motivation was to end suffering, then I think he got to like it, then money. Allitt - wasn’t she just mad? And I don’t know the US one. I don’t think Letby is thought to be insane. 

If there's anything in this, and I am told from the inside (UK) that a large contingent of medical professionals are very uncomfortable with the conviction, there but for the grace of God goes anyone who is responsible for the care of the most vulnerable in a system that is broken in many ways. I've had people in such positions say straight out to me that she's a scapegoat for wider failure. It is at the very least a horrible and intolerable thought that she MAY be an innocent young woman who was simply doing her best to cope. Blame has been assigned to her and the circus has moved on.

[woolley]

1 hour ago, quilp said:

What was the motive in Beverly Allitt's case, or Shipman's, or Charles Cullen in the US? And the many other medics charged and convicted for similar offences? There'll be a few pointers in those cases as to why these crimes are committed.

"I killed them on purpose because I wasn't good enough..."

This, amongst other scribblings found in her possession. Why would she write that?

Read the links, Quilpy. Someone actually in nursing pointed me to the Guardian article yesterday, but the New Yorker one linked by wrighty is even more compelling. I think we will see growing unease about it all. Certainly raises doubts and has given me a different point of view to the cut and dried one I started with.

[TheTeapot]

https://snowdon.substack.com/p/further-thoughts-on-lucy-letby (just click 'no thanks' or 'continue reading' if it asks you to subscribe, create an account or pay)

Some other thoughts here, from someone less doubtful. I find Chris Snowden quite entertaining on the old twitter (despite him being one of those evil tufton street types), he was posting about this case a fair bit the other week. 

I'm not totally sure what to think, but people are fucking weird so I don't doubt she could have done it.

Miscarriages of justice definitely happen. Remember Sally Clark? She was convicted of killing her two babies despite not having done it, poor woman drank herself to death. 

 

[The Voice of Reason]

Letby had a trial by jury ( which none of us were on). They heard the evidence and came to their conclusion. She had a defence lawyer who argued her case. What more can you do?
 

Yes miscarriages of justice do occur. The Birmingham Six, Guildford four  etc, the chap last year or so ago who was released after being  falsely imprisoned for years for rape.

Thank God capital punishment was abolished because there’s no going back from that.

 

 

[Sheldon]

8 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said:

She had a defence lawyer who argued her case.

There's always the "ineffective assistance of counsel" approach, but that would require being able to demonstrate clear and obvious errors on the part of the defence. 

[woolley]

6 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said:

Letby had a trial by jury ( which none of us were on). They heard the evidence and came to their conclusion. She had a defence lawyer who argued her case. What more can you do?

There is a tendency for people who are "found" guilty to automatically "be" guilty in the eyes of the public. It is uncomfortable to contemplate flaws in the system. Read the links. You may find them troubling. Potential expert witnesses for the defence never called. Circumstantial evidence based on her shift patterns that was incomplete. Causes of death from the prosecution that paediatricians regard as ludicrous and highly improbable. Neonatal deaths when Letby was not present omitted from the evidence given to the jury, etc. Added to which, the hospital was in crisis, short of staff, particularly qualified staff, and everyone was running around firefighting and working under massive stress.

[Passing Time]

1 hour ago, The Voice of Reason said:

Letby had a trial by jury ( which none of us were on). They heard the evidence and came to their conclusion.  She had a defence lawyer who argued her case. What more can you do?
 

Yes miscarriages of justice do occur. The Birmingham Six, Guildford four  etc, the chap last year or so ago who was released after being  falsely imprisoned for years for rape.

Thank God capital punishment was abolished because there’s no going back from that.

 

 

Not that lawyers have been worse than useless…🙄

[lfc84]

she might, and I say might, just be really shit at her job and is incapable. Should that be true it opens a huge can of worms (hospital management, clinical oversight, NMC, professional standards, police investigation, whistle blowing, monitoring.....etc etc). 

 

You begin to see how it suits the narrative. And the least problematic way out of it for the authorities is to prosecute her.

Edited July 24, 2024 by lfc84