Assisted dying

[John Wright]

Just now, Albert Tatlock said:

So you have to be conscious to make any final decision on your life ...even if you have previously signed off on your wishes if you were to end up in a coma?

That’s an advance directive.

Nothing to do with choosing the time of your death.

Everyone should have an advance directive, saying in what circumstances the plug should be pulled and resuscitation not be attempted, and appointing someone you trust to make decisions if you’re incapacitated 

[Gladys]

13 minutes ago, Albert Tatlock said:

So you have to be conscious to make any final decision on your life ...even if you have previously signed off on your wishes if you were to end up in a coma?

Is that what is contemplated under the assisted dying legislation? 

[Gladys]

Doesn't the bill permit the prescribing of the necessary drugs, not the administration?  So, if you are in a coma, you cannot take them.   

 

[woolley]

1 hour ago, Casta said:

A year or two back, a neighbour was over 10 weeks in intensive care at Nobles. Many folk write him off, even some of their family said he was "a vegetable", there would be no point in them living in any case.

A close relative wouldn't and didn't give up. Neither did Nobles Ward 17 (bless them). He pulled through and is as right as ever. 

Just by definition, being in ICU is a knife edge situation.

I do wonder what might have happened if this law had been knocking about then.

Nothing would have happened any differently. 

[Fred the shred]

Absolutely nothing as Woolley says anyone in a comatose state would not be in a position to ask to end their life.   I think this Bill is intended for people who are unfortunate enough to have long term terminal illness like motor neurone  , excuse spelling, disease living in misery towards the end but with all faculties, horrible disease, and just want to end their suffering.    I very much doubt there would be more than 20 souls, if that, a year that would use the option of an assisted death but I believe it should be there for those who do.

[Casta]

18 hours ago, Gladys said:

If they were in a coma, they would not have had the capacity to start the process of assisted dying. 

 

16 hours ago, woolley said:

Nothing would have happened any differently. 

I see what you mean of course. But I was trying to portray a deeper nuance. Woolley, you can't say nothing would have happened any differently, because we just don't know what effect this bill will have on us, on our society, on our care services etc.

Can you imagine somewhat further down the line with this, say, where assisted end of life had, as it may well do, become a bit of an every day matter where folk near or over retirement age and in pain, could just opt to end it all. We will all get used to it. This new law thing. A tad blase re death. Just an everyday happening. 

What would be the point of putting so much effort - to say nothing of cost - into keeping a person alive for so long in ICU? Only a 100% effort and commitment from everyone will keep this person alive. 99% effort and they're off the mortal coil.

"Death is just a part of life" "They're going to die sometime anyway" etc.

Thin end of the wedge and all that. The ratchet turns.

The examples you have in your head on this bill are different than mine.

 

 

[Gladys]

2 hours ago, Casta said:

 

I see what you mean of course. But I was trying to portray a deeper nuance. Woolley, you can't say nothing would have happened any differently, because we just don't know what effect this bill will have on us, on our society, on our care services etc.

Can you imagine somewhat further down the line with this, say, where assisted end of life had, as it may well do, become a bit of an every day matter where folk near or over retirement age and in pain, could just opt to end it all. We will all get used to it. This new law thing. A tad blase re death. Just an everyday happening. 

What would be the point of putting so much effort - to say nothing of cost - into keeping a person alive for so long in ICU? Only a 100% effort and commitment from everyone will keep this person alive. 99% effort and they're off the mortal coil.

"Death is just a part of life" "They're going to die sometime anyway" etc.

Thin end of the wedge and all that. The ratchet turns.

The examples you have in your head on this bill are different than mine.

 

 

Understand your concerns, but at the heart of the bill seems to be that the person is driving the process and presumably at each stage will be asked to confirm that this is their wish.  If they cannot make that confirmation, then the process could not proceed.  As I noted above the bill allows for prescribing not administering of the necessary drug.  So,  someone other than the person themselves cannot legally administer it. 

[Private Sector Pete]

2 hours ago, Casta said:

Can you imagine somewhat further down the line with this, say, where assisted end of life had, as it may well do, become a bit of an every day matter where folk near or over retirement age and in pain, could just opt to end it all. We will all get used to it. This new law thing. A tad blase re death. Just an everyday happening. 

People like you annoy me. You don’t have to imagine a world like that as Logan’s Run is a film that portrays this. And as a film it’s work of fiction. It isn’t a reality that exists or likely will exist other than in the mind of a fiction writer. I’m guessing you haven’t watch a loved one writhe in agony in front of you as a cancer slowly eats away at them? The IOM had the chance to do something good and unique here and once again the usual moaning Manx muppets and religious lunatics have held it back. Well done all concerned hope you don’t end up dying a slow lonely painful death from cancer when you didn’t have to. 

[Auntie Depressant]

Wow. 

[woolley]

5 hours ago, Casta said:

I see what you mean of course. But I was trying to portray a deeper nuance. Woolley, you can't say nothing would have happened any differently, because we just don't know what effect this bill will have on us, on our society, on our care services etc.

The patient will be the person making the decision, and that's how it should be. I understand your deeper nuance in thinking that it will somehow make us all value life less, but there does come a point for many where life has no value as it becomes a curse to the wretched individual enduring it. This is intolerable to a caring society, and it must change.

[Gladys]

33 minutes ago, woolley said:

The patient will be the person making the decision, and that's how it should be. I understand your deeper nuance in thinking that it will somehow make us all value life less, but there does come a point for many where life has no value as it becomes a curse to the wretched individual enduring it. This is intolerable to a caring society, and it must change.

We should value quality of life, not longevity.

[WTF]

so , just asking , if someone has power of attorney over somebody who hasn't said they want to die but is effectively comatose and can't communicate for themselves , does the person with power of attorney get to speak for them ?

[Gladys]

3 minutes ago, WTF said:

so , just asking , if someone has power of attorney over somebody who hasn't said they want to die but is effectively comatose and can't communicate for themselves , does the person with power of attorney get to speak for them ?

Doubt that a POA could give the power to opt for assisted dying as the whole basis is that it is the person's decision made without coercion and made in full possession of their faculties, but JW can confirm. 

[Gladys]

To add, the bill is clear that the person must have capacity and a clear and settled intention to end their life at the time of the necessary declaration. 

Edited December 2, 2024 by Gladys
Bit about clear and settled intention.

[alpha-acid]

10 minutes ago, Gladys said:

To add, the bill is clear that the person must have capacity and a clear and settled intention to end their life at the time of the necessary declaration. 

But it does not matter one way or the other as a Doctor can prescribe end of life medication, if the person is in a care home and the staff will administer it when the time is right, IE overdose of heroin