P.K.

15 minutes ago, HeliX said:

No, as stated, the primary driving force behind the animosity and war is displacement, and then the Deir Yassin Massacre.

Now you're just trying to wheedle out of the fact that the UN partitioned the territory and the antisemitic Arab League concentrated on destroying the State of Israel rather than consolidating land for the Palestinian Arabs.

Which is why the Arab League have to take most of the blame for the current situation...

1 hour ago, HeliX said:

That's not what I said.

So you agree that the antisemitism of the Arab League made them completely ignore how much assistance they could give the Palestinian Arabs to secure territory around the State of Israel in favour of the destruction of the State of Israel and It's people?

Personally I think you should quit while you're behind...

21 minutes ago, HeliX said:

What country has ever handed over a massive portion of it's land for no reward? If any other ethnic group had been gifted a load of land there do you think they'd have let it slide given you seem to think the problem is antisemitism and not the grossly unfair transfer of land and ensuing disposession and violence?

So according to you the Arab League is not antisemitic...?

1 hour ago, HeliX said:

Zionists had begun killing and displacing Palestinians before this point. One of the worst offences was what lead to the Arab Israeli war, the Deir Yassin Massacre. Between 250,000 and 300,000 Palestinians had fled or been expelled prior to the Arab-Israeli war.

As usual your "reality" is selective.

What was UN resolution 194 again?

Had the Arab League helped to consolidate Palestinian lands in the territory alongside the State of Israel organised by, let's face it, the good intentions of the UN things would have been very different.

Instead, blinded by antisemitism, all they could think of was the destruction of the State of Israel and It's people.

And it would appear some things just don't change...

13 minutes ago, HeliX said:

Why did the refugees exist?

They were the direct result of the Arab League invasion of 1948. You know, when they attempted to destroy the fledgling State of Israel and drive the survivors into the sea.

Fail.

Reality first bit you in the arse starting about here:

https://www.manxforums.com/topic/57541-israel-vs-the-rest-of-the-world/?do=findComment&comment=1748416

Just now, HeliX said:

I don't see it in the last 2 pages.

Your problem.

1 minute ago, HeliX said:

Why did the refugees exist?

I already explained that a few posts back.

6 hours ago, RecklessAbandon said:

Translation "Please don't make me say the quiet bit out loud".

As mentioned before - paper thin, and now I've shown everyone how paper thin your stance is, it would appear this "discourse" is done.

Maybe we can check in again in a few years time, and see who was on the right side of history.

BS.

I cba to refute your nonsense post. Frankly with an imagination like yours you should be writing schoolgirl fiction!

Clearly you have no idea about how the region demographics came about nor how the politics have arrived at where we are now. If you did you wouldn't post such nonsense and make yourself look stupid.

My only stance is that Hamas, supported armed and financed by Iran, Qatar and others carried out a deliberately brutal assault on a sovereign nation which has a right to defend itself. Which includes taking the fight to the enemy as a right which no-one would dispute. This they have done.

I have no idea if they have designs on Gaza, and neither do you, but on their withdrawal in 2005 they wanted to wash their hands completely of the festering sore that is Gaza, which refutes a lot of your BS, and who could blame them. Especially as it was created by the Arab League ie they made the problem they can fix it. But, of course, they won't.

The bottom line is, literally, that you're talking through your arse...

You can't beat the voice of experience...

13 hours ago, woolley said:

That's all there is to it.

Vive la paranoia!

ETA : WTF?

13 hours ago, woolley said:

That's all there is to it.

Vive la paranoia!

One of the biggest problems shown up in the current tory administration is the way they pick their leader/PM.

It's down to the membership which is thought to consist of about 160k people but the tories will not release the actual number. Anyway it's because of them that the UK ended up with several PM's that were eminently unsuitable for high office and who went on to do untold damage to the UK and it's standing on the world stage.

What we know about them:

63% of Conservative Party members are male, and 37% female
6% are under 24-years-old, 36% are aged 25 to 49-years-old, 19% are aged between 50 and 64-years-old, and 39% are over 65
24% backed Remain in the EU referendum, and 76% backed Leave
56% live in London and the south-east of England, 18% in the Midlands and Wales, 20% in the north of England and 6% in Scotland
80% belong to the highest social economic groups known as ABC1

They are so far removed from the electorate that they are known as the "selectorate".

They all have one thing in common though - they have a great deal to answer for...

5 minutes ago, RecklessAbandon said:

Nope, Brexit was the result of billionaire non-doms convincing the gullible that immigrants were the reason they were getting bent over.

As you have illustrated that you refuse to answer a simple question because you don't want to be tied to a flawed and undefendable position, I will make my statement out in some very simple and easy to follow points.

• The IDF and the Israeli government have the military might and means (as well as the backing of some of the largest and well funded militaries in the world) to have carried out a "destruction of Hamas" at any point in history.
• The IDF and the Israeli government has systemically carried out an apartheid on the people of Gaza, restricting access to basic needs like food, water, power and adequate medical care.
• This ongoing apartheid has created generations of people oppressed, maligned and neglected.
• An attack was inevitable.
• The IDF and the Israeli government clutched their pearls and exclaimed "how could we know an attack was coming?"
• They then used weaponry and tactics that are frowned upon by the rest of the world, again clutching their pearls and exclaiming "its not our fault our enormous city levelling bombs are killing civilians in civilian areas, we're just trying to kill the bad guys".
• Now they are committed to "taking out the bad guys at any cost" they are occupying Gaza.
• Now they are in Gaza, they are never going to leave.
• In time, settlers will begin occupying Gaza
• Gaza will cease to exist and become part of Israeli territory.

The fact you wilfully defend this can only mean you are aware that it is a land grab, but you can't say the quiet bit out loud because you don't want to called out for it later down the line.

Hence how I knew you would avoid answering a yes/no question with word salad.

Good day.

What a waste of bandwidth...

Just now, RecklessAbandon said:

By why invite the assault in the first place?

They had the means, the material and apparently the want, so why wait when they have had ample opportunities before the attack?

History shows the Israeli government had no intention of building a peace in Gaza, conveniently breeding a simmering hatred of Israel which could only result in an attack on Israel, thus providing the carte blanche I mentioned earlier.

"Why invite the assault in the first place" is one of the stupidest things I've ever seen on here.

Next you'll be claiming that brexit is a success...

Just now, RecklessAbandon said:

So when you can't word salad your way out of a position, you triple down with a "I dunno, guess we'll find out".

Paper thin.

More nonsense.

What position is that?

1 minute ago, RecklessAbandon said:

But why now and the way they are pursuing that goal?

Thick or what?

They had to respond to the assault because not to would just invite another. How many times do you need to be told...?

Just now, RecklessAbandon said:

Not only did I know you would answer like that, I also knew you would double down with a second non-answer.

Just admit that the IDF and the Israeli government is using the attack as a pretence for a land grab.

I haven't the faintest idea what's going on in Netanyahu's head and neither do you. Mind you, I suspect he doesn't either!

I guess we'll find out...

2 hours ago, manxman1980 said:

I ask the question because it seems that the Israeli Government gave up any rescue attempts long ago in favour of trying to wipe out Hamas.  As a result they probably condemned any remaining hostages to death one way or another. 

Come off it. It's not like they have made a secret of the fact that they have tasked the IDF with the destruction of Hamas.

Put simply the more they degrade Hamas the further out they have pushed the next possible assault.

As the "Iron Dome" system was overwhelmed I would hope they would now include the classic "counter battery" response. The enemy fire rockets, your radars immediately pick them up, calculate where the launchers are and send a counter strike on it's way before the enemy rockets can hit the ground. Or Iron Dome in this case. Should make those launching the rockets at Israel highly popular not...

41 minutes ago, RecklessAbandon said:

D- you failed to meet the brief of the question and decided to use word salad to deflect from making a definitive stance (how very politician and exactly the way I knew you would answer).

Try again (and remember the brief):

Simple question which requires only a simple answer:

Do you (P.K.) honestly believe that the IDF and the Israeli government will vacate Gaza after they have achieved their objectives? (Yes/No)

You couldn't know I would answer like that because it's clear you do not understand any of the nuances of the area.

I gave you the answer - according to the UN Israel is the occupying power of Gaza. According to the UN this means Israel is responsible for "public order and safety" amongst other things in Gaza. Only a complete and utter idiot (RecklessAbandon) would think that they can do that without a presence.

Now like the rest of the region Israel would much rather have nothing whatever to do with stateless Palestinians and Gaza in particular. They have already stated as much the last time they withdrew their military presence and settlers in 2005. But eventually someone has to re-build Gaza. Personally I would give the whole sorry mess over to the Arab League. They created Gaza and all the other camps full of stateless people so they can fix it. But, of course, they won't. It suits their extreme anti-semitic agenda to keep the hatred festering away in their camps and Gaza to remind other arabs of their obligations to the never ending cause...

The Which report:

https://www.which.co.uk/reviews/ferries/article/best-and-worst-ferries-for-2024-aZBMl6S5heSv

I agree the prices are getting stupid. Car + 2 £530 return.

Sleazy £100 for 2 pax return.

No contest.

Can't fault the logic. It's run as an independent entity so don't blame the MHK's for the steep rise in fares!

Then bleed it white...

1 hour ago, manxman1980 said:

So the Israeli Government are against peace? (Yes, I know its not that simple).

You did not answer my question though.  

The Israeli government is not against peace. That's ridiculous. They are against giving anyone the idea that Hamas could attack Israel, brutally murder over a thousand Israeli citizens, take several hundred hostage - and then force a ceasefire i.e. get away with it...

I suppose you mean do I think any hostages are still alive? With no evidence to say they have all perished then you have to hope and act as if there are still some to save. The IDF have no other option.

Strange thing to ask. Why so...?

2 hours ago, manxman1980 said:

Do you really believe that any of the hostages are still alive?  Between Hamas and the IDF I would imagine most have been executed, died of injuries or killed by the IDF as casualties of their campaign. 

I think that this has been one of the sticking points with any ceasefire.  The Israeli Government have demanded that Hamas hand over live hostages and quite simply Hamas cannot comply with that requirement.  

The major sticking point of any ceasefire is the Hamas demand it should be permanent....

18 minutes ago, RecklessAbandon said:

Simple question which requires only a simple answer:

Do you (P.K.) honestly believe that the IDF and the Israeli government will vacate Gaza after they have achieved their objectives? (Yes/No)

You can only ask a "simple" question because you clearly don't understand the reality of the situation.

Israel remains the "occupying power" of the Gaza strip according to the UN. Even though the enclave was created by the Arab League. Before the 1948 attempt to destroy Israel and drive the survivors into the sea the population was about 80k. On the Arab League (failed) invasion refugees fled the fighting to Gaza and swelled the numbers to some 300k stateless people. They stayed stateless because Egypt, the occupying power, wouldn't give them naturalisation like the other Arab League states didn't with their Palestinian refugees.

They have now reached 2m plus with very high unemployment, insufficient natural resources to sustain them hence many live on handouts and no foreseeable future. A road to nowhere.

Israel however became the "occupying power" after the accord with Egypt.

5 hours ago, RecklessAbandon said:

So it is all just a very convenient coincidence then, nothing to see here.  We can look forward to Feltz's IDF and Israeli government cheerleading instead of Myska's critical holding to account.  

Considering the IDF funding and international arming and support, it does seem a little odd how lax the security was prior to the attack and the shambolic the initial response to the attack was - but then the IDF has the arms and means to steam roll into Gaza reducing infrastructure, religious buildings, libraries, etc to dust.

I'm sure in a few years time, we can look forward to PK hand waving away the new settlements in what was the former Gaza.

There's nothing "coincidental" about someone running down their contract no matter how much you with your agenda would like it to be otherwise...

The Israelis were caught napping and they know it. A major failure by their security services.

Now they had to respond to the assault because not to would simply invite another. They chose to take the fight to the enemy.

Now modern warfare is about winning with as few casualties to your own side as possible. Ideally you want to manoeuvre your enemy into such a position that they can be massacred with no losses to your own side. They have chosen to make a ground incursion which is the exact opposite of the above. This is because Hamas have deliberately embedded themselves in the general population to use them as human shields. So the only way to eliminate them is to go in and draw them out.

Starting in the North they are now left with Rafah in the South. They will have to go into Rafah because there are at least four Hamas brigades there to be eliminated. Also It's pretty certain that any remaining Israeli hostages will be in the area as it's pretty unlikely they will be anywhere else. Anything left of the Hamas leadership on the ground will also be there plus Hamas infrastructure including a possible four tunnels into Egypt.

1 hour ago, The Voice of Reason said:

So the “stupid and completely unnecessary” democratically expressed wish of the people should not have been implemented then?

Notwithstanding of course that the racist electorate were misled and/or lied to.

And that they are stupid and were asked the wrong question which they apparently didn’t understand.

Have I missed anything else?

You missed the "sunlit uplands" of brexit.

Errrr... Where are they exactly...?