HombreTel Posted February 17, 2010 Share Posted February 17, 2010 I lived, worked and brought up 2 kids on the IOM. I left to live in Spain ten years ago but follow Manx events closely and I have an honest question. Why is the IOM "Independent?" As far as I can see the Manx people are paying a high price for their "Independence." Okay personal tax is cheaper, but it looks like that benefit will be reducing rapidly along with Company Taxes. The IOM is said and led by the UK and through them the EU. The IOM is subject to virtually all their laws and now that the UK are ending reciprocal health arrangements, changing the Common Purse Agreement and I'm sure there will be other things that the UK comes across in its scramble to find extra cash for its own coffers. What is the point of being "Independent?" As an aside, I have a UK driving licence but passed my motorcycle test on the IOM, which was duly noted on my UK licence. Did you know that apart from the UK no other EU country will accept that pass. "We do not recognise the IOM" is the standard reply. There are many things not available to the Manx people, the European Health Insurance Card allowing you free access to health care throughout Europe for one. This thread is not knocking the IOM by the way, it really is an attempt to find out what Manx people believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La_Dolce_Vita Posted February 17, 2010 Share Posted February 17, 2010 So...if I have a Manx driving license it is not accepted in Continental Europe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HombreTel Posted February 17, 2010 Author Share Posted February 17, 2010 It's OK for a holiday but not if you want to live here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimcalagon Posted February 17, 2010 Share Posted February 17, 2010 As an aside, how come Manx residents such as Zoe Gillings can compete as part of the Great Britain team but do not qualify for healthcare in Britain? (I know the answer, btw, it was a rhetorical question) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbms Posted February 17, 2010 Share Posted February 17, 2010 You will find the Isle of Man has exchange agreements with virtualy every European country now, some states of america and various other countries, therefore the information you was given is wrong, these are the countries listed that a full exchange is valid The following EU Member States: United Kingdom (Great Britain, Northern Ireland or Gibraltar), Austria, Belgium, Republic of Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxemburg, Malta, Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Republic of Ireland, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden. An EEA State (Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway) All other countries there is some restriction i.e. for Canada and approved US states it is automatic only Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HombreTel Posted February 17, 2010 Author Share Posted February 17, 2010 You will find the Isle of Man has exchange agreements with virtualy every European country now, some states of america and various other countries, therefore the information you was given is wrong, these are the countries listed that a full exchange is valid The following EU Member States: United Kingdom (Great Britain, Northern Ireland or Gibraltar), Austria, Belgium, Republic of Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxemburg, Malta, Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Republic of Ireland, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden. An EEA State (Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway) All other countries there is some restriction i.e. for Canada and approved US states it is automatic only Hiya jimbms I have been to the traffic office in Malaga and they outright refuse to accept my Manx motorcycle pass which contradicts your post. If you can point me in the right direction to some legal evidense to support this I will buy you a pint or twp next time I'm on the island. Look forward to hearing from you - HombreTel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbms Posted February 17, 2010 Share Posted February 17, 2010 You will find the Isle of Man has exchange agreements with virtualy every European country now, some states of america and various other countries, therefore the information you was given is wrong, these are the countries listed that a full exchange is valid The following EU Member States: United Kingdom (Great Britain, Northern Ireland or Gibraltar), Austria, Belgium, Republic of Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxemburg, Malta, Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Republic of Ireland, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden. An EEA State (Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway) All other countries there is some restriction i.e. for Canada and approved US states it is automatic only Hiya jimbms I have been to the traffic office in Malaga and they outright refuse to accept my Manx motorcycle pass which contradicts your post. If you can point me in the right direction to some legal evidense to support this I will buy you a pint or twp next time I'm on the island. Look forward to hearing from you - HombreTel Try ringing the vehicle licensing section at the sea terminal, although I must admit there seems to be no seperate information on motorcycle passes the agreements are supposed to cover all classes as shown on the license. Now in saying that after speaking to someone there it seems the spanish are awkward bastards at the best of times and are one of the few places that seem to let you exchange a license based on what mood they are in, it seems there have been many complaints about this country not only from Manx drivers but several other countries, so as your in spain it seems you are at the whim of a well known group of xenophobic civil servants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wright Posted February 17, 2010 Share Posted February 17, 2010 Our independence is an historic accident due to pressure from a bankrupt GB against a tax haven IOM in the mid C18 From early times the IOM was a separate kingdom. It was fought over by Norse, Scots and English and between various members of the Manx royal family. Eventually the English won control, but never integrated it in to England It was instead granted to favourites for life or as an inheritance in exchange for service in the feudal system. After some chopping and changing it ended up with the Stanleys who ruled here as Kings and later Lords ( better be a great Lord than a puisne King)before and after becoming Earls of Derby. By and large they ignored it. There was no income tax and no duties, no one had money to import extravagances. Their only income was on the fees raised when land was sold or imnherited and the annual rental After the English Civil War the Stanley coffers were empty, they raised the only taxes they could by doubling the charges on change of owner of land on death and increaed the rents and tried to limit ownership to 21 years giving rise to revolt and our Act of Settlement. The Derby line became extinct and the title passed to a daughter who was married to the Duke of Atholl. By this time 1730 and beyond there were high duty rates imposed on all sorts of goods imported to Ireland or England and the IOM became a centre for smuggling. It hit English revenues so hard that the government in Westminster decided to buy the kingship rights from the Atholls. From 1765 the same duty rates were applied here as in England and all proceeds went to London to pay off the loan used to buy out the Duke, none was spent on island administration or defence. By 1812 the Dukes son was campaigning that his dad had not been paid enough, he negotiated and sold out his remaning rights to a paynment on transfer of land by sale or inheritance for another staggeringly high sum.. All IOM income went to the Treasury in London and was paid into the Commom fund. After sinking charges and the costs of administration some money was allowed to the Governor to run the IOM. This was the only money availoable to the Governor to pay for services etc. There was no local tax In 1865 it was agreed that some funds would come back to the IOM and be spent on harbours and promenades etc the House of Keys became popularly elected as a quid pro quo, but all finances were in the hands of the governor, Tynwald raised no tax and could spend no money. This lasted until WW1. After bread riots a subsidised loaf was introduced as in England and OApensions. Income tax was introduced to pay for it. Still tax raising and spending was in the hands of the Governor who was Chancellor, Chief Minister and Lord High everything else. That lasted until 1961. we got the Finance Board and more control and an extension of the Common Purse, ie a division of the taxes raised by UK which relateded to our conmsumption, Then VAT was injtroduced and then separate Customs and Exise and a new agrement over calculating sheare of tax take, which when not satisfacitory tio the UK they forced our arm. So that is a potted history of why independent. Now to your licencing question. No country accepts the provisional liceneces or pass certificate of another, they recognise and exchange the full licences of the other country. So if you passed your bike test here and have never had a full bike licenece issued here then that is why Spain will not recognise it. If you had had it added to your IOM licence before changing it to the UK there would be nowhere to show where you had passed your bike test and Spain wuld recognise your UK licenece with a bike qualification. Indeed if you had a manx full licence Spain woud swap it as well. In 1973 on EU entry the Islands were offered all out, all in with UK, and Protocol 3. They chose Protocol 3 Not that there was any democratic choice offered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pongo Posted February 17, 2010 Share Posted February 17, 2010 In 1973 on EU entry the Islands were offered all out, all in with UK, and Protocol 3. They chose Protocol 3 Not that there was any democratic choice offered. Do you know who decided that ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VinnieK Posted February 17, 2010 Share Posted February 17, 2010 What is the point of being "Independent?" Current events aside, the issue of independence is one of being able to run your own society as you see fit, and that is more than VAT and laws (and it has to be pointed out that UK laws do not automatically hold on the Isle of Man, even if our Government chooses to mimic them a lot of the time). It's about far more than personal income tax. Were we not independent, how well do you honestly think we'd fare? We'd be under the UK's tax scheme, so there would be precisely zero reason for any business to set up shop on the Island, we wouldn't have the opportunity to arrange things like our own social care or educational provision - there would be less money, and less work, and I can virtually guarantee that the Island would end up one of the most neglected parts of one of the most neglected regions of the UK (assuming, as is likely, we were appended to Cumbria or Merseyside) in the UK when it came to investment and infrastructure. In short, the UK would take our tax and leave us to rot. And yes, of course there's a bit of sentimentality there. As irrational as it may seem, and god knows I've argued against certain varieties of nationalist and patriotic sentiment on here enough over the time I've been here, I think it would genuinely break my heart were the Island to be subsumed within the UK. That may sound ridiculous, but that's the way it is, and I could never really bring myself to consider the Union Jack my flag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wright Posted February 17, 2010 Share Posted February 17, 2010 In 1973 on EU entry the Islands were offered all out, all in with UK, and Protocol 3. They chose Protocol 3 Not that there was any democratic choice offered. Do you know who decided that ? Governor and Executive Council (fore runner of Co Min) There was a full UK and Islands constitutional review the Kilbarndon Report http://wapedia.mobi/en/Royal_Commission_on_the_Constitution_(United_Kingdom) soundings were taken here before publication Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HombreTel Posted February 17, 2010 Author Share Posted February 17, 2010 So that is a potted history of why independent. Now to your licencing question. No country accepts the provisional liceneces or pass certificate of another, they recognise and exchange the full licences of the other country. So if you passed your bike test here and have never had a full bike licenece issued here then that is why Spain will not recognise it. If you had had it added to your IOM licence before changing it to the UK there would be nowhere to show where you had passed your bike test and Spain wuld recognise your UK licenece with a bike qualification. Indeed if you had a manx full licence Spain woud swap it as well. In 1973 on EU entry the Islands were offered all out, all in with UK, and Protocol 3. They chose Protocol 3 Not that there was any democratic choice offered. Hello John and thank you for the potted history, I think we'll have to agree to disagree. My licence. I passed my bike test in the IOM and had a full Manx licence with full entitlement to bike and cars. I exchanged this for a UK licence with full entltlement, but against the bike entry was a discreet GBM. The Spansih accept my UK licence for a car but will not do so for the bike. It is rediculous. I've checked and almost all EU countries have no problem with IOM licences and I believe Spain should be the same. I'm gathering evidence to present to the authorities ASAP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KMC Posted February 17, 2010 Share Posted February 17, 2010 and I can virtually guarantee that the Island would end up one of the most neglected parts of one of the most neglected regions of the UK (assuming, as is likely, we were appended to Cumbria or Merseyside) in the UK when it came to investment and infrastructure. What a load of rubbish Cumbria isn't neglected, and if the truth be known, is in a far better state than the IOM as far as the infrastructure is concerned!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VinnieK Posted February 17, 2010 Share Posted February 17, 2010 and I can virtually guarantee that the Island would end up one of the most neglected parts of one of the most neglected regions of the UK (assuming, as is likely, we were appended to Cumbria or Merseyside) in the UK when it came to investment and infrastructure. What a load of rubbish Cumbria isn't neglected, and if the truth be known, is in a far better state than the IOM as far as the infrastructure is concerned!! That's why Carlisle is rated a fair bit above average in terms of deprivation (108th most deprived out of over three hundred local authorities)? Don't get me wrong, Cumbria really is a lovely place overall (hence tourism making up about 20% of its entire economy and its ability to attract a fair number of wealthy people to retire there) but it's simply not a priority in terms of government investment and development, and more to the point we would probably be last in line for whatever did trickle the county's way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theodolite Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 What an interesting question this topic poses. Our independence is an historic accident due to ... blah blah blah blah blah More than a touch of the 'well er, well actually' there Johnnie boy, The Isle of Man is independent because it can make its own "laws". .....to cut to the chase, to 'uphold' those laws you must have Manx trained lawyers (and of course their chums in ... the .... judiciary ....). Manx lawyers: £200? £300? £400? £500? ++per hour. In a population of 80,000 there are about 200 of them. Raking, raking, just raking it in. So primarily, having our own law (and our 'Independence') benefits only the lawyers of the Isle of Man (and a few of their cohorts too of course). Shaft 'em and rake it in. We really would be better off being a county of England. To think otherwise you are either such as: A) A Manx lawyer or: B) a ridiculously proud Manx fool Welcome to the 21st Century category B)...... 'tis gonna be a hard one to swallow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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