Gladys

Big feller was he?

Flaps?

Or perhaps that's a bit rude.

Still there. They must have been made to withstand nuclear attack given the weather we have had. Possibly they fell out of Befuddled's bag when she parachuted back to the island.

Having re-discovered my Lovefilm subscription, I watched The Look of Love tonight about Paul Raymond. Really enjoyed it and thought Steve Coogan played PR well.

PR was a charismatic and intriguing character, but not someone you would want to hitch your wagon to. If the film is to be believed it was, on the one hand a very productive and self fulfilling life, but, on the other, very destructive for those around him.

Am able to report that the knickers withstood yesterday's gales (unlike the boats and planes) and remain in situ.

Of course I left them there. I do pick up rubbish and bin it when I'm out walking. But, someone else's under crackers? No.

They were on a fence in the closed portion of Marine Drive so, if a signal for doggers, it would have to be for the pedestrian variety.

 

kathybrighton?

I purposely didn't mention her, just to see how long it took for someone else to make the connection. Tee hee.

Well, you can get answers to just about any question.

Walking the dogs on Marine Drive today there were a pair of knickers draped over a fence post - M&S, size 14 (the label was visible) and lilac in colour.

Who lost them, and more interestingly, how?

I've seen gloves, socks and shoes draped over railings, but never undergarments.

What on earth has been happening up there?

 

 

TJ I only ever used it as part of the proper noun that is General Gaol, so I'm not sure what your initial whinge was about. But gaol and gaoler are as valid English usage as jail and jailer it's like spelled and spelt or the eng/us that is colour color, favour favor etc. mr Webster was lazy

I wasn't whinging about your usage. It was aimed more at the entire population.

Another modestly unambitious aim, TJ.

Put a plug in it.

Kopek, I think the reality is that people who are grieving, particularly a sudden unexplained death, will go to extraordinary lengths to try to understand what happened to their loved one. It is human nature and seems to be very much part of the grieving process.

So, despite the advice from the family liaison officer, it is highly likely that a relative could find themselves in this thread, especially one familiar with the internet and social media.

What everyone forgets is there will be processes and procedures to follow. Perhaps the clock couldn't start ticking on the custody of the suspects because they weren't in custody, say. Or perhaps there were other procedures being followed which meant a press release was not appropriate.

No good shouting about it, it just shows you up for being small minded and ignorant.

Criminal matters are public, no doubt about thst hence we have open courts and accountable police procedures. But that public aspect cannot override the basic need to properly investigate and the presumption of innocence.

My thoughts are with all involved, as they are when there is any tragedy. I will learn what happened in the fullness of time, and not knowing will make little difference to me.

RonnieD: I've no idea if there's any truth in this, and it's very easy (perhaps too easy ?) to believe there might be; but never, ever, trust the Manx establishment. If there is any truth in this theory, then it'll take someone with a mighty shovel to dig it up again, and it won't be anyone from the Island either. It'll have to come from outside. It might be something for the people behind the recent Facebook petition to consider.

I really do not want to bury anything, but what purpose would it serve now?

The inquiries at the time found huge failings from the design and construction (oraglass) to the way the building was managed (locked fire doors, lack of emergency training of staff). Why would establishing that it was an electrical fault rather than the accepted cause make any difference now?

I hate to bring the spectre of compensation into the equation, but did the victims or their families receive any compensation? It was at a time before the litigation culture, but some comments have made me wonder if there were any settlements made.

 

 

 

 

If this was in the immediate aftermath, it would be understandable and supported. But, many years have passed and the site was used for many more years as a reduced leisure complex.

 

So, sorry but no

I agree Gladys and with a memorial area already available, I really don't see as to why there's a need to have two?

 

 

We should build something positive with the Summerland site and I've mentioned before of a dry ski slope and themed playground area etc, etc and etc.

Lets look at the future and not at the past.

Lets have something that the majority of people want.

Let people enjoy themselves and this time, in complete safety.

Lets move on

Why not ask the "majority"" of people what they want, give everyone a chance to have their say, give them a vote!

Please understand I, along with many others here, think about Summerland and its victims quite a lot. But it was a long time ago, and while we don't want to sweep the event under the carpet, it is time to move on but in a sensitive way.

If this was in the immediate aftermath, it would be understandable and supported. But, many years have passed and the site was used for many more years as a reduced leisure complex.

So, sorry but no

So it was the Regulations what done it?

 

There were sufficient Regulations in place.

Torry, it was a different time and obviously the regulations in place were not sufficient, but that was only apparent after the fire.

"Lessons were learnt"

"Move on"

..and all the rest of the platitudes that come out of the Isle of Man authorities. Although obviously that stance is not confined to the Manx way of doing things.

 

OK, I was too young to give a damn other than getting down stairs to the rolling skating ring. But you are asking was there anything obvious? Well yes there was, to a reporter (as I have stated before in this thread) who posed the question what would happen in a fire. That is not the usual sort of question that would be asked when a new building is show-cased.

 

An example of an obvious/apparent design fault: the infamous flying stairway was 3' 6" wide in places. The Theatre Regulations required 5'.

 

Now, I'm not wanting to rake all this stuff up, but I am certainly not going to get the 5 gallon drum of whitewash out. Which seems to be the intention of some on here.

 

"Lessons were learnt". They certainly f-cking well were.

But lessons were learnt; even more so, Iives have surely been saved. What would you rather have? It isn't a whitewash, you have to put it in the context of the time. You say there were people showing concern at the the safety at the time, but how much of that was before the fire? It was a hugely ambitious project for the time and, yes, ambition possibly caused blind spots. But no greater blind spots than were taken as the norm for the time. That is no comfort for the victims, survivors or relatives - that I fully accept. After the investigations building and fire regs were overhauled and rightly so. But do you really think anyone involved, or even of an age able to comprehend what was happening at the time feels smug or wipes their brow with a shrug happy to have 'got away with it'?

It was a terrible event, absolutely and unforgettably; I shall take it and the aftermath with me to my dying day and I wasn't in there. Lord knows how the survivors deal with it.

But, I want to make two very strong points: firstly, the fire had a deep, deep impact on the whole of the island for a very long time. In the first days it was the impact of a terrible horror and practical stuff like the phone lines being clogged all the time and the continual call for blood donors, volunteers to do this, that or the other. Then it was just an assimilation of what had happened and having the reminder of the twisted body remain for a long, long time (it was quite some years until the thing had been reduced to the concrete base and re-opened for your roller skating etc). I am sure other posters on here will have more vivid and lasting memories. There was no 'let's move on' sentiment at all.

Secondly, your baying for blood, and shame we should all feel over an event that you have no first hand knowledge of, is ignorant of how the island actually responded at the time with instances of heroism, compassion and just getting stuck in that followed.

As for your point on the stairs, as I can recall the flying staircase was very wide and only (possibly) narrowed up to the solarium level. There were other staircases on the MER side that were narrow, but they were not intended or used as the main access. There could be criticism of the stairs but in use they seemed to work OK.

A lasting memory was a picture in the local press of a person on the flying staircase silhouetted against the fire with an arm upraised as though shielding themselves from the flames while firemen 'played water' on them in the hope of saving them. That image epitomises summerland.

When I was a student, all the building surveyor students asked me about Summerland as it marked a watershed in UK building and fire regs and was something of a case study.

The revision of these regulations is a more fitting and lasting memorial to those who perished than any plaque, garden or statue.

That rising smoke!! 39 secs into MTTV last video (Summerland 40: Memories (3) looks very, very photoshopped (sorry) just not sure about the origin of these images from the guy with the new camera!!

Having witnessed the fire minutes after it started, I doubt there is any photoshopping at all. The fire spread very quickly and produced thick black smoke due to the nature of the material that was burning - it was, basically, plastic.

It was a truly horrific event and the island was paralysed for days afterwards; the raw trauma lasted for years .

The lady in the MTTV interview seemed to be reciting her sister's memory as well as her own and I am sure there would be crystal clear recollections and others more muddled; that seems to be the way of traumatic memories - the mind is very perceptive when in immediate danger but, when safe, it probably goes into shut down, both as preservation mechanisms.

Nothing in the interviews that I watched indicated any kind of conspiracy and it is wrong for those not directly involved or affected to now, forty years later, start looking for one.

If the reports on here are true about how the survivors were ignored and not even offered a chance to mingle with each other and recall the events that only they witnessed first hand, then the memorial service was a dismal and callous failure.

Not sure how different that lady's version is from the accepted version.

Why? I can't figure out if he is spoofing or not.

Would enough diverse plants thrive there? It can be very windswept in the winter

 

 

A sorry tale, Quilp. However, that story has stirred some memories. I think there was some chit chat at school about the fair haired lad, surname beginning with 'M (?)', at the time - mainly, how he had been wrongly accused of some involvement but quickly dispelled when the real hapless lads were identified.

 

 

Absolutely terrible for you and for the real perpetrators - they only set in train a sequence of events they had no idea where or how it would end. Not like many others who set up the dominoes just ready for any minor event to start the topple.

 

Yes Gladys, you've got 'M' dead-on. I've gotten to think of those lads whose actions led to the disaster and wonder how their lives've panned-out. They were eventually charged with criminal damage, to the padlock on the kiosk that served the 'Crazy Golf', if i remember correctly.

I was having a drink in the 'Legion', this TT week, and noticed the copper who'd been 'very handy' with me and 'M'. Sat and wondered what his memories were. I guess feelings ran pretty high with the cops at the time and they were looking for a result.

Other stuff i recall is that my sister, who'd only just passed her driving-test was busy running some of the less-injured to Nobles and then picking-up blood-donors and ferrying them to the hospital. Weren't some of the local cabbies also involved with this? Maybe Lonan3 could shed light on this...?

You should have asked him.

A sorry tale, Quilp. However, that story has stirred some memories. I think there was some chit chat at school about the fair haired lad, surname beginning with 'M (?)', at the time - mainly, how he had been wrongly accused of some involvement but quickly dispelled when the real hapless lads were identified.

Absolutely terrible for you and for the real perpetrators - they only set in train a sequence of events they had no idea where or how it would end. Not like many others who set up the dominoes just ready for any minor event to start the topple.