manxman1980

Trust me that journalists will not be bound by the same constraints. They will find names and contact details for family and friends and will look for an angle on a story. They are a pain in the backside when something like this happens. Sadly I have first hand experience of what journalists will try and I can guarantee you they will have found this thread.

How would I ever know it had happened? Through the media. That was not the point though. My point was that you would be no more safe than you are now regardless of whether the Police or media reported charges had been brought. It appears that the police have informed all the relevant parties and now are releasing the information to the media. Essentially following the same procedure that they always do when investigating serious crime.

I wanted, primarily, to know whether the suspects have been charged, bailed or released, which given the severity of the incident seems a fairly sensible position. If they've been charged, then it will go to court and justice will be done, and seen to be done (or whatever). If they've been released without charge and no further action, then the culprit is 'at large', which should concern us. I live here, the cops told us someone was murdered, I'd like the reassurance, three days on, of knowing we don't have a killer on the loose. Imagine that they have been charged, are taken to trial before a jury, however, the jury are not convinced "beyond reasonable doubt" that the two were responsible. They are therefore found innocent and released. Police investigations reveal no further leads and therefore no-one else can be arrested and charged. Would that make you feel better?

I have recently found out that the manufacturers of tin foil, under direction from the NSA, CIA and MI6, have made it possible for it to be used as a two way transmitter between the individuals and government satellites. It now means that Government can not only read the thoughts of any gullible enough to wear it on their head but also plant thoughts into their minds. You have been warned!!!

I don't think looking at the reasons for the fire starting and the fire safety aspects are macabre. It is from understanding these that you can learn and take steps to prevent this type of incident in the future. What I struggle to understand is the need to examine who was to blame and the call for the current Manx Government to apologise or take responsibility for the events of that day. How many of the present Government were actually in Tynwald back then? If the current Government does apologise or take responsibility it no more changes anything than the British Government apologising for the slave trade. Learn from the events, remember those that lost their life and build for the future is what was needed in my opinion. We have done the first two (finally) and to some extent we did the third with the "new" Summerland. Now the site is derelict we need to do something else. If that includes a memorial then I will be happy with that but I do not think it should be solely a memorial gardens. Partly from a practical point of view it is not an area that I think of as being sunny and in the Winter the waves come over there and would cover everything in salt water.

Cheers Torry You are right that we rarely notice some of the biggest hazards around us, afterall when did you last examine the strcuctural integrity of the house to make sure it does not collapse on you? Mind you there is no way you will catch me standing on a glass floor in Blackpool Tower no matter what regulations exist! As I say I was intrigued by some of the comments I had read and that was the reason I asked about what people who had used the building before the fire had thought of it at the time.

Thanks for the reply. My general impression is that Summerland may have a few similarities with the Titanic (and other similar events). Generally built in accordance with the regulations in force at the time and considered to be a marvel of modern technology and construction techniques. In the design, however, some risks are over looked or assessed to be very unlikely and therefore additional safety precautions are not put in place. Once built and in use a tragic sequence of events leads to the design flaws being laid bare and people losing their lives as a result. Following the event realisation dawns about just how dangerous a sequence of events can be (see also Piper Alpha Disaster) and then the regulations see a massive overhaul to improve safety in design, construction and operation. What led to the loss of life in all these tragedies was not one single event. It was a sequence of events that interacted with each other and multiplied the original problem and it is with hindsight we can look back and say IF that had not been allowed then the whole sequence would have been stopped. This is why I have been asking the questions about whether anything was clearly evident to the general public that made them think Summerland was unsafe. Torry Loon points to a journalist who asked a question about fire safety, others point to corners being cut in the design and construction yet still the general public at the time chose to go to Summerland on a regular basis. That seems to suggest that many people felt it was safe and felt that the risk was within acceptable standards, however, in some of the survivors accounts they talk about the building as being obviously unsafe and a fire risk. I am suggesting that this is a view taken with experience of the horrors of the fire and the benefit of hindsight. As an aside you mentioned earlier about the removal of the Oroglass for testing well my grandfather took some of the Oroglass away to the UK with the Civil Defence for testing. I cannot recall where it was taken too but I am sure I could find out.

Gladys - I certainly agree with that! It would have been even more of an insult to those who died if the regulations did not change as a result. Bladerunner - The reason I posed the question about whether the general public had any concerns about the building was because a few of the survivors have said that it was evident that the building was not safe. This is without making reference to the locked fire-exits. They seemed to be suggesting that there was something that obviously made it a fire risk. I was just wondering if anyone who had used the building prior to the fire ever thought it was unsafe? It is easy to say that the Titanic's design was inherently unsafe after the disaster, however, it appears that most people really did believe she was unsinkable. Was the same true of Summerland to some extent? I was not alive at the time but think that it is an awful tragedy, especially for the Isle of Man, I pushed my MHK for a memorial and I am pleased something has been done. I, as said above, agree with Gladys the most important memorial to the victims is the building regulations changed and lessons were learnt.

BladeRunner has pretty much got the point I was making. Was the building recognised as being unsafe only after the events or were concerns raised by people before? IOMRS97 -What you say about a tour of the building for the emergency services makes sense. Was this done for any other building at that time?

Thanks Torry loon Interesting to note but maybe not that surprising with a new "state of the art" building. What about those who regularly went to Summerland? Did anyone else feel it was potentially dangerous?

I notice a few accounts seem to suggest that the building was clearly a fire hazard and/or unsafe and I wonder if this is said with the benefit of hindsight or whether it was really that bad? As far I can see from the accounts I have read the main problems were locked fire exits, inadequate fire fighting systems and a problem with the materials used. The fire exits I can see as being obvious to most visitors, however, how many would really have been able to notice the design and material issues? I have also seen pictures of Summerland before the fire and nothing jumps out as making the building an obvious hazard when it came to fire.

I don't think that there should be any dispute about how fierce and rapidly the fire spread. The photographs, eye witness accounts and reports all match. My comment with regards the video was that if anyone has access to the story involving the lady and her sister it would be useful to have it posted in order to stop speculation and people reading between the lines.

Interesting to listen to that interview. One quote I would pick out; "I was passed down over the wall. I personally don't remember that, I was 9, because of the panic and shock" It seems at odd's with a lot of her other memories about events on that awful day. I was not there and I am fortunate never to have been in a similar situation but I am sure that traumatic events and memories can become twisted due to stress, grief, shock and trauma as well as listening to other peoples version of events and trying to link them with your own chaotic memories. Maybe someone could look up the relevant news story from the papers of the day and prevent further speculation on here which I dare say will be potentially upsetting to those who survived.

How you can read the heartbreaking stories on here then glibly suggest the site should be used as a railway museum is beyond me. Nothing should be built there except a beautiful memorial garden. I think the suggestion was not meant to offend anyone or take away from the tragedy of the fire but was a genuine suggestion for how the site could be used in future. In fairness the location does make sense for such a use. Surely it would be much worse if the site was used for more flats or commercial buildings? I suggested earlier that it would be good to hear from the survivors and the families of those who were killed to hear their views on what, if anything, should replace Summerland.

The "new" Summerland was alright but not fantastic. I used to go to the Rollerdrome every weekend and go to the cinema occasionally. I never really used the swimming pool. My memory is that the place was massively under utilised with a lot of space which always seemed unused. It also seemed to be rather run down and in need of some renovation.

Yes I do, however, you still resurrected this thread to post about another accident which resulted in fatalities. Therefore you are no better than Duke Video were the first time around, and may in fact be worse. Sympathies to all the family and friends of those who lost their lives though.

I would be interested to know what the survivors and families of those who were killed on that day would like to see happen to the area. I do think that maybe a balance between a memorial garden and some form of recreational venue would be good. Throw in some of the architecture of Derby Castle and make that end of the promenade more attractive again and it could be positive. I was going to disagree with Manannan over the Railway Museum and although I am not sure it would be a success it would certainly fit with the Electric Railway. I just hope that whatever happens with the site is not a load more flats or another concrete monstrosity like the "new" Summerland was.

Interesting comment... That links in with another tragedy that was remembered recently - Piper Alpha. That, and Summerland, are perfect examples of why Health & Safety has become so important. A string of small errors and oversights happen one after the other and lead to a terrible disaster and loss of life. I have studied the Piper Alpha disaster as part of a Health & Safety course and I know a trainer who uses the Summerland fire as a "case study" as well. It is good to use these as examples to reinforce the importance of considering hazards, risks and controls and, in my opinion, means that something positive may have come from a tragedy. I wonder how many more lives were "saved" as a result? (None of that takes away from any of the personal experiences and loss. I hope that it does show that in some places the Summerland fire has not been forgotten and is still influencing thinking.)

I once spent a whole 24 hours in the "new" building (with permission!) and used to go to the Rollerdome on a regular basis. The only weird thing was how underused the building was. Frankly I don't know what the best thing to do with the site is but perhaps a memorial garden would be a good idea.

Irishone - I cannot imagine the effect of your experiences but I can do understand your desire to find truth about the chain of events on that tragic day. I am afraid I cannot help you as this occurred before I was born. A few members of my family were involved in the rescue effort and taking the Oroglass for testing. It was not an event that they discussed very much, and certainly not with me. I know one member of my family recovered a number of bodies so I am not surprised it was not something that was talked about. Unfortunately all of my family who were there have now passed away so I cannot provide you with any useful information.

Irishone - I appreciate that you have personal motivation regarding the Summerland fire and that you have questions you want answers too. Perhaps those with the information you want could sent you a private message. I think it is a positive thing that a proper memorial is going to be put in place and I don't think that this thread should be the place for unsubstantiated accusations. I know others will have different opinions on this but for once can we not be supportive on something that is good.

"There was an important job to be done and Everybody was sure that Somebody would do it. Anybody could have done it, but Nobody did it. Somebody got angry about that because it was Everybody's job. Everybody thought that Anybody could do it, but Nobody realised that Everybody wouldn't do it. It ended up that Everybody blamed Somebody when Nobody did what Anybody could have done!" Pretty true of most of the threads on MF

Does every thread started on this section have to descend into an exchange of conspiracy theories?! It doesn't necessarily mean they were complicit. The parents may have been warned/threatened to back off because if the involvement of people high up. It is no secret that the ruling elite in the UK are largely a bunch of paedophiles. TJ - Regardless of your views of the ruling elite in the UK this happened in Portugal.

Certainly but what about all the other missing children about whom we hear next to nothing? Do they not deserve justice as well? This is what winds me up about this case. So many other children go missing or are abducted each year yet very few get the coverage this case has done. I have nothing against the McCanns - this is all due to the media!

Yes, where is he when you need him? No idea! It seems to have gone very quiet so maybe he was "suicided" which he seemed very worried about. I have had a look back at some other threads though and I have concluded that this is all part of a huge paedophile ring which is running the country/world and was centred around Jimmy Saville who was apparently some lizard creature who is a member of a ruling elite. Although that ruling elite cannot seem to decide what/who they supposedly are...