Thomas Jefferson

It is basically impossible to respond to fundamentalism of this sort. It is "essentialist" and sees individuals as captives to a particular cultural or religious identity. Using what happened thousands of years ago to justify drawing national borders today is frankly ridiculous - should we be re-instating the Danelaw, returning Canaan to the Canaanites and demanding the constitution drafted by Thomas Jefferson is overthrown for ignoring indigenous Indian rights? It is a recipe for nothing other than chaos, violence and ethnic cleansing. Nobody is talking about what happened thousands of years ago; we're talking about a continuous Jewish presence in the land. Jews have always lived there, even when a majority of the Jewish people lived in exile due to forced expulsion and genocide. What does all this stuff about agrarian versus urban dwellers have to do with anything? Are you trying to suggest the Jews were consigned to urban areas and the rest of their country was non-Jewish? Ridiculous. I think you are the one being ahistorical here. What people called themselves is complicated, but there was a large settled non-Jewish population that had historically lived in this region and been subject to Roman, Byzantine, Frankish and Muslim depredations over the centuries. These inhabitants of Palestine may have experienced some in-migration, but the demography of the area is mainly a settled population naturally growing with a migrant component - both Arab and Jewish. By the late 19th and early 20th century the original population was already far larger than any in-migration, and high fertility totally dominated as the population grew due to high birth rates up to the censuses of the modern era The area was not a depopulated waste land which was suddenly filled by outsiders in the 1920s. Who said it was? Jews lived there; the Aliyah movement began in the 1800s, not the 1920s. Jews also lived there in every century since 4,000 years ago. Jews did not just disappear from their land, despite attempts to remove them or wipe them out. Of course there were non-Jews there as well,but they were not "Palestinians". Such a people has never existed. The non-Jews of the land are now citizens of Israel. Arab Israelis are around 20% of the Israeli population. "Palestinians" are Arabs who refused to integrate or were refused integration in the surrounding areas. There should have been a complete transfer of Jews to Israel from Arab countries, and Arabs (who didn't want to become Israeli) from Israel to the Arab countries. Instead, a one-sided transfer happened, with Israel taking in the Jews from Arab countries, and the Arabs creating an artificial refugee crisis by refusing to take in Arabs from the so-called occupied territories. You want it both ways TJ. You want to be able to condemn Jews being forced out, but also demand that is how the non-Jewish population is treated. Demographics mean there cannot solely be a Jewish state without the forced removal of millions of people. You deny the historical presence of the non-Jewish population and their cultural inheritance in this area - again something you insist is recognized for Jews. I agree with you it is wrong and terrible that Jewish communities were targeted and forced out of Arab and Muslim countries. It is totally unacceptable to treat minorities like this. But the same holds for Israel and its aspirations towards the non-Jewish populations it controls. The UN recognized the sovereignty of both the Jewish and Palestinian communities - I think that is right and defend the creation of both Israel and a state for the Palestinian population of the area. The idea either side should be forced into exile is wrong and for either side to think it can unilaterally enforce its might on the other is simply a recipe for war and violence. Surprise surprise that is exactly what is happening. And will continue to happen as long as the type of ethnic essential-ism portrayed by TJ holds sway. I wasn't condemning Jews being forced out (although I certainly would condemn that); I'm pointing out the hypocrisy and double standard of people who call for a Palestinian state. Why aren't they calling for a Jewish state in the "occupied territories" in the Arab countries they were forced out of? I don't deny the historical presence of non-Jews in the land. I reject your fictional claim that there was a group of them called "Palestinians" who lived there for thousands of years. Let's not kid ourselves -- the Palestinians are descended from Arab conquerors or economic migrants. However, Arabs and other ethnic groups are part of Israeli society -- Arab Israelis are about 20% of the Israeli population. Notice they're not called "Palestinian Israelis". Such a people never existed. I don't care what the UN recognises. Only the Jewish state has sovereignty; I see no basis for a seperate "Palestinian" state. They need to be integrated into the surrounding Arab countries, just as Jews from the surrounding Arab countries were integrated into Israel. It's high time the Arab countries ended the refugee crisis they have been causing for decades.

You Zionist, Anti-Semite, Islamophobe*!!!!! Fuckwit. (*delete as applicable) Fixed.

Indeed. The Talmud is one of the greatest bodies of literature of all time. I particularly like Pirkei Avot, such as this nugget from Hillel: "If I am not for myself, who will be for me? And when I am only for myself, what am 'I'? And if not now, when?" Quite a different philosophical approach to the "gain wealth, forgetting all but self" ideology we have to put up with in the Isle of Man today.

AYN RAND weighs in

Sorry, Mark, but that idiot on the IOMToday comments section is not qualified to tell people what is or isn't Judaism. Zionism is only the belief that Jews should dwell in the land of Israel, which is exactly a belief of Judaism. Modern Zionism is the same but is based on secular nationalism and national self-determination. A lot of people confuse Zionism with Israeli Government policy, which is unfortunate. Zionism is not only a part of Judaism, it is one of its most fundamental apsects. Have you even read the Torah? (Clue: It's the first five books of the Old Testament). The connection between the Jewish people and the land of Israel is central to the entire religion. They are supposed to be there. Jewish religious liturgy and halakha (the Jewish legal system) is based around living in Israel. All of their religious festivals and holy days are oriented around the agricultural cycle of the land of Israel. And what is all that nonsense about "ethnic cleansing" and "genocide"? When is that supposed to have happened? You are just making stuff up.

Fmr Minister Of Defense For Canada Says Extraterrestrials Are Working With U.S. Military August 17, 2014 Russia Today News https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKTyvrK8DYI

I have never heard them commit to "land for peace", so how could they be insincere about it? Yes, they are impervious to international criticism and UN resolutions, because those things don't mean diddly squat in the final analysis. What matters to Israel is their own survival as a people. And yes, the general international consensus against Israel is anti-semitic, because it is tantamount to the dismantling of the Jewish state. If Jews followed world opinion, they would have to build a rocket and go live in another solar system, or else have a mass suicide, because most people on this planet suffer from a mental disorder known as anti-semitism. I await your explanation as to why you are not calling for the dismantling of Algeria, Egypt, Iraq, Libya, Morocco, Syria, and Yemen, and the establishment of mini Jewish states in those countries for the nearly one million Jews who were forced out of their properties in those countries, most of them taking refuge in Israel.

"Land for peace". What a ridiculous concept.

But that isn't possible, and by ignoring half the picture is guaranteed to bring misery to ... the Jewish state. Not exactly enlightened is it. Half the picture? You are employing a false equivalency. That land is Jewish land and always has been. They've been in that land for 4,000+ years and the only reason they were ever departed from it is because they were forced out. Even the Muslims' own Qur'an says as much and that "Allah" gave it to the children of Israel. Also, you refer to the Palestinians as having been there since ancient times but no such people existed. You are literally making up history, creating a fictional people out of thin air. Arabs who have lived in the land became Arab Israelis. They are Arab Israelis, not Palestinian Israelis. Most of the Arabs in the region are descended from a mass influx of cheap labour from the surrounding countries during the British Mandate. The only solution that I see is for a singular Jewish state, and for the Arab states to integrate refugees instead of perpetuating a deliberate refugee crisis. How many decades have Palestinian "refugees" been in Jordan, for example? Why in all that time have they been kept in refugee camps and not integrated? They are being kept as refugees so they can be used as pawns against Israel, to keep it an open wound and foster hatred. It's already too late for the "west bank" to be part of another state alongside Israel, and Gaza isn't viable. Likewise, Israel without the west bank is not a viable state. A two state solution is not on the cards. A one state solution where they all join hands and sing kumbaya my lord is not on the cards either, for self-evident reasons. Either there is a Jewish state (where Arabs live....as already happens in Israel) or there is an Arab state (where Jews have been exterminated). Nearly a million Jewish refugees fled the Arab countries between 1948 and 1972, and they were all integrated, most of them by Israel. Why aren't Israel-critics like yourself calling for a small Jewish state in Algeria, Egypt, Iraq, Libya, Morocco, Syria, and Yemen, for the Jewish refugees who lost their homes there? Why is everything in your argument so one-sided against Jews and against Israel? Why, in your view, do Jews have less of a right to property ownership than Arabs?

I prefer a one state solution -- a Jewish state.

Yes, but not with money -- the most senior leaders of Hamas should all be shot. Along with vile people like this. http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/5612693 It's not difficult to take a person's words out of context to make it look like they're saying something they're not actually saying. "Dr Mordechai Kedar said he was not suggesting such a tactic."

Yes, but not with money -- the most senior leaders of Hamas should all be shot.

TJ do you bother to read other people's posts? Yes. You keep pointing out the negative of "religion", pointing to things which deal only with a small minority of religious adherents, when there is no such thing as "religion" as an actual entity or singular phenomenon. There are thousands of unique religions out there to mention nothing of the denominations within them. Your posts on religion have an anti-religious bias.

I studied with Daniel Chirot - this long lecture gives his account of how genocide can result. It doesn't directly touch upon religion very much, but it gives a strong explanation of how people can be inhumane. It's good, thought provoking, and explains how features common in religions can result in slaughter. Likewise, features common in religions can result in emancipation, freedom, liberty, and peace. You're throwing them all under one word "religion" like they're all a singular phenomenon, which I think is wrong and just more cultural marxist bias.

How?

So does capitalism. Religion can also serve to minimise these tendencies.

No. Belief in a Supreme Being / Mother Nature / a Higher Intelligence (I'm deliberately being vague because the more specific you get, the further away you get from what I mean) is based first and foremost on a primordial instinct, perhaps even a psychological archetype, and in part on reason -- it's not based on religion which is nothing but a man-made hierarchical system of control to exploit or manipulate people's innate belief in the spiritual or transcendent.

I'm not a Christian. I'm a Deist which means I believe in a Supreme Being but not in a particular religion. I also just believe in being good to people and don't need religion to be like that. Now, that isn't to say that my Deistic beliefs and practices aren't influenced by certain religious traditions. P.S. I think that was a straight forward answer.

Religion is irrelevant. What matters is the human being, his or her conscience or heart. You have to differentiate between mere belief in God, which even demons (a figure of speech) or a computer could accomplish, and genuinely having the spirit of God dwell in your heart. I don't think the latter is something accomplished exclusively by one religion and not by the others. I refuse to believe someone who has God in their heart is capable of killing another person except in self-defence.

Why's that so funny?

I think the problem is not religion but false or defective religion. You can make generalisations about all religion being bad or backward but as someone who has studied all the religions I think that is just wrong.

Because people like ISIS and Hamas don't care if you're human. They care if you're Muslim.

You forgot to list warfare and weaponry. Arab armies conquered a land empire stretching from Spain in the west to India in the east and brought the science, mathematics engineering, art and culture of all the peoples they conquered under their thumb through forced conversions and religious domination. Within a couple of generations, it was to be expected that they would excel in all these fields, just as the Americans excelled in rocket engineering when they recruited German scientists or when western Europe took in Byzantine refugees after the Fall of Constantinople in 1453 (having been violently conquered by the Muslims you're so fond of) which then fueled the Renaissance in Europe. As for your comment about Christians, it's a generalisation and a wrong one.

Before any of you join a dumb "boycott Israel" facebook page, just remember it could backfire if an Israeli sees it and decides to create a "boycott the Isle of Man" page.

Interesting comments section, more interesting than the article, in fact. Will there be protests from the guilible? If they even think about it, I'll be there with a megaphone and placards for a counter-protest. I'm not going to sit by and watch a bunch of *****s (most of whom aren't even Manx) make an Israeli feel unwelcome on MY island. They're the ones who are unwelcome.