simon Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 Granted the name may need a bit of work but the manifesto can be decided by forum posting a poll voting. Populist parties scare me. I've met the man in the street (as Sid Vicious said) and he's a ****. I prefer politicians who stand for what they actually believe - rather than what they think is the popular point of view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasterChief Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 Who said we would put up specific politicians - actually I may have - but anyway, why not put a forum thread forward as a candidate. Is it prohibited by election rules? All the vital decisions could be debated and voted upon. This is quickly turning into the purest vision of democracy, granted people without the internet wouldn't have a voice but who cares about them anyway? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Ayres Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 Interesting view on democracy and socialism there, pray you never get elected to a position of trust eh? they, mac vannnin, have a right to their point of view, I support them for what it's worth, as a comeover I wouldn't even attempt to join but I will support them where I can and they make sence. In my town we have a new commissioner, unelected as there was no election, elected (excuse the oxymoron) because no-one stood against her. Who are we to critisise without the guts to put ourselves above the parapet? We can not. Elected by the silent majority, critisised by the same, should have an easy time then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasterChief Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 I have to admit I'm neither silent nor a majority but I am in a position of trust. Lock your doors and hope all will go well! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 It'll be the worlds first proper internet based democratic party. Open to all with a record history of all decisions on these here forums, what an experiment in democracy it could be. Go TMFRPNLPEV!!! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> At the last election, wasn't Joe R, Ramsey, who wanted to install an electronic fully democratic system into the Island? All the people would have an opportunity to vote on everything and anything by way of a home voting system over the internet. He didn't get in of course as it all sounded a little loopy back then. I bet half of us lot didn't even have email at work then. But I think he was in fact way ahead of his time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ButterflyMaiden Posted August 10, 2005 Author Share Posted August 10, 2005 From their policy statement, it's fairly hard not to see Mec Vannin as a 'left wing' party. Most of their policies hint, for instance, at the establishment of a planned economy - their stance on immigration, whilst undoubtably being primarily of nationalist appeal, is a manifestation of this notion that's central to socialist ideology. Indeed their statement on population: "policies to control the size of the population are essential for the achievement of economic, ecological and cultural sustainability" suggests that they endorse the 'lump of labour' fallacy of economics that characterises some proto-socialist thinking (and which most grown ups, left and right wing, haven't believed in since the 1900's). Of course, they're a nationalist party first and foremost, but that doesn't debar them from being left-wing. Anti-immigration policies and nationalism fit more comfortably in socialist ideology than with free market liberalism (in which protectionist policies and controlled economies are largely anathema). Don't get me wrong though, they're still lame. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Granted their constitution proclaims them to be socialist & republican. Maybe Im reading too much into some of the press statements I have seen! Even on second reading I cant find much evidence of socialist thinking.... any amount of evidence of xenophobia though! It just struck me as surprising that an organisation such as Mec Vannin would be listed on a well known portal to Communist and Socialist organisations. Has the organisation ever had a grouping in Tynwald or the local authorities ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snaipyr Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 Has the organisation ever had a grouping in Tynwald or the local authorities ? A 'grouping'???! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ButterflyMaiden Posted August 10, 2005 Author Share Posted August 10, 2005 A 'grouping'???! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Grouping Happy to help Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VinnieK Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 Even on second reading I cant find much evidence of socialist thinking.... any amount of evidence of xenophobia though! Socialism can easily be consolidated with xenophobia. Strict immigration policies (which need not be xenophobic) are a manifestation of the belief in a planned economy, i.e. a central government declares who is allowed in an out of the country based on their ideological perception of what the labour market demands and can sustain. This kind of economic planning is the very essence of socialist thought, compared with a free market, liberal ideology that would advocate little if any immigration policy and would allow the markets and comparision between economics to determine immigration rates. To be fair, Mec Vannin's brand of socialism is crude, to be sure, and their policies littered with inconsistencies, but it's hard to see it as anything else other than left wing (Also, I suspect even a cursory look at the histories of countries accepted to have been socialist or communist will reveal plenty of evidence of restrictive immigration policies.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ButterflyMaiden Posted August 10, 2005 Author Share Posted August 10, 2005 Even on second reading I cant find much evidence of socialist thinking.... any amount of evidence of xenophobia though! Socialism can easily be consolidated with xenophobia. Strict immigration policies (which need not be xenophobic) are a manifestation of the belief in a planned economy, i.e. a central government declares who is allowed in an out of the country based on their ideological perception of what the labour market demands and can sustain. This kind of economic planning is the very essence of socialist thought, compared with a free market, liberal ideology that would advocate little if any immigration policy and would allow the markets and comparision between economics to determine immigration rates. To be fair, Mec Vannin's brand of socialism is crude, to be sure, and their policies littered with inconsistencies, but it's hard to see it as anything else other than left wing (Also, I suspect even a cursory look at the histories of countries accepted to have been socialist or communist will reveal plenty of evidence of restrictive immigration policies.) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> No problem with any of that (hallo again Vinnie ) However, and notwithstanding Mec Vannin's promotion of the plan over the market, I still cant find any commitment to redistribution of wealth, for example, either by reform or revolution, or any commitment to controlling the means of production ...rather, and based on some bizarre press statements, they seem more intent on reverting to a time long past and pinning the Island's hopes on everyone crofting for a living. But you are correct ... they dont on third reading present an outlook which by any stretch of the imagination could be defined as economic liberalism. Im still not convinced they warrant a listing in a well regarded portal to socialist and communist organisations .. but what the heck .. my knowledge of Mec Vannin is limited to reading a whole series of press statements in a Yahoo group and reading through their web site. Has Mec Vannin ever had a political grouping in Tynwald ? or has it ever entered local authority politics ? If so what policies were pursued ? Is the group now still active ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul H Posted August 11, 2005 Share Posted August 11, 2005 I do not even begin to know the first thing about Mec Vannin. That is rather a shame because as a Manx Man I feel that I should at least know a little bit about them. What I can say is if they were as serious an organisation as this thread leads me to believe then I would know much more than I know now and could write something worth reading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasterChief Posted August 11, 2005 Share Posted August 11, 2005 At the last election, wasn't Joe R, Ramsey, who wanted to install an electronic fully democratic system into the Island? All the people would have an opportunity to vote on everything and anything by way of a home voting system over the internet. He didn't get in of course as it all sounded a little loopy back then. I bet half of us lot didn't even have email at work then. But I think he was in fact way ahead of his time. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> In all seriousness it will be interesting to see how the democratic process evolves over the next few decades (providing it survives the draconian anti-terror laws that are being discussed). With the proliferation of wireless technologies, the ever shrinking size and increasing power of mobile devices and continuous news broadcasts on every story imaginable a system in the future where everyone votes on almost every issue may not be so far-fetched. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teapot Posted August 11, 2005 Share Posted August 11, 2005 No grouping but wasn't Phil Gawne a member in the past? Perhaps there are some MHK's who secretly, in their hearts are members but just haven't come out yet! Don't MV have a problem with taking the oath when being sworn in as an MHK so this is their reason for not standing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lonan3 Posted August 11, 2005 Share Posted August 11, 2005 a system in the future where everyone votes on almost every issue may not be so far-fetched. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> That's a terrifying thought when you consider the sources that so many people use to obtain their 'information' ie Daily Mail, Sun, Star, Mirror etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rog Posted August 11, 2005 Share Posted August 11, 2005 No grouping but wasn't Phil Gawne a member in the past? Perhaps there are some MHK's who secretly, in their hearts are members but just haven't come out yet! Don't MV have a problem with taking the oath when being sworn in as an MHK so this is their reason for not standing? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> From http://br.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mec_Vannin “In the 1976 election they put up ten candidates. Only one was successful though, Peter Craine. He remains to this day the only Mec Vannin MHK there has ever been, although several ex-members have gone on to become MHKs, such as Phil Gawne and Hazel Hannan. Peter Craine subsequently left the party, joining the shortlived breakaway Manx National Party which was formed in 1977 and disbanded in 1981.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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